Posted on Sep 13, 2016
Would an E9 comply if ordered to attention by an O1?
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I once had a newly promoted CPO arrive at my command where I was the Senior CPO. Upon his arrival he informed the OIC (an O-5) and me that he has just received orders that he is going to be commissioned as an LDO. The day after his commissioning ceremony he arrives in the office and says to me, "Chief, you're in my desk." Out of the corner of my eye I see the Cdr look down at his computer, refusing to acknowledge what he knew was about to happen. My GMC immediately told my enlisted sailors to go find something to do. I then informed the new Ensign that I, not him, ran the office and I decided work stations, not him. I informed him that his work station was the table in front of my desk and that I would let him know when Liberty began. I saw him look at the CDR who refused to even look up at him at which point he sat at the table in front of me. I thought my GMC was going to explode with laughter. At the end of the day I told the Ensign that Liberty had begun and he could leave. Never had any more problems with that Ensign.
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LTJG (Join to see)
That is a great share, CPO Randy Francis. I think one of the hardest things for new Officers to understand is their relationship with the Chief.
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PO3 Butch Cotterell
That is great! In the 4 years I was in I actually witnessed our chief go nose to nose with an LDO Lt. Both of them yelling at each other about writing me up. Chief walked back through the hatch and looked at me and said "that's settled so don't fuck up again" and I never did.
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From the IG Desk: "YES," in answer to the original question. However. I was raised in the Air Force and my father was a Chief Master Sergeant E-9. My brother retired from the Navy as a Master Chief Petty Officer, E-9, and I have held Enlisted, Warrant, and Commissioned rank during my 30-year Army career. The best 'under the table' experiential advice I can offer to anyone out there in ALL branches of our military is there are two positions you don't screw around with: 1) A Senior NCO and 2) A Senior Warrant Officer. These two experts sit with General rank Officers, "run" the military, and one messes them over at risk to one's own backside regardless of who you are.
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Lt Col (Join to see)
Well said Colonel. The best piece of advice I ever recieved was from a retired USAF Lt Col (my uncle), just prior to my commissioning. He told me "You're going tobe a 2LT and you don't know sh*t. Treat everyone with respect and let your NCOs teach you what they need you to know. Build a good relationship with your Chief and remember how much experience he has." That advice kept me humble and out of trouble with my SNCOs for years.
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SPC Wanda Vergara-Yates
SGT Chris Whidden - YES! Especially the E-4s in positions that have more clout than is reflected by their rank. I had to laugh about an NCO that insisted he was best buds because he was a phone call away from a particular SGM, who just so happened to have me as the lowly enlisted sit in his hot-seat weekly to discuss actions pertaining to whatever his pet peeve was for the week. I became his star model at the promotion board and he bragged on me as I was entering the room (but no pressure soldier). One quick chat with the boss over both of us and that NCO was no longer in that position. He was later exposed as not having earned everything he claimed and went down to E-1 at the USDB.
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I actually had this exact conversation with some of my classmates today. I'm the lone prior enlisted butterbur in my course and I'm doing my best to impart some of my limited wisdom on them that I've acquired over the past decade or so of service. I told them that you have to have tact in these situations. Not only does that CSM probably have an office next door to a flag officer, but they probably also play golf and drink beers together on the weekend. Getting on a CSM's bad side (and consequently your BN or BDE commander's bad side) from the get go is a not a good way to start a career.
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CPT (Join to see)
Well said. I think it's also important to remember that the junior enlisted that you were rude to might be the finance clerk that would potentially help you with pay issues or something along those lines. You piss them off and your pay inquiry might accidentally end up in the shredder. I actually served under a JO who had a bad habit of treating junior enlisted like crap all over post. He not only sullied his name, but gave our entire unit a bad name. It took a lot of damage control (and a few bottles of Jack, Crown Royal, etc) to smooth over tensions around base. My enlisted/NCO roots are deep and I don't intend on ever forgetting where I came from, regardless of how much shiny stuff is on my chest. I believe all of my fellow service members are professionals regardless of rank and I will treat them with respect until they prove otherwise.
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1LT William Clardy
There are exceptions to every rule, LTJG (Join to see), including the need to respect experience. I still cringe when I recall listening (as a freshly promoted corporal) to a master sergeant talking about how the time spent on marksmanship was wasted time in his opinion, because he never once aimed his rifle during a firefight. He proudly claimed to always keep his face in the dirt and his M16 on full-auto as he sprayed bullets in the general direction of the enemy.
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SFC Alfred Galloway
CPT (Join to see) - don't ever mess with a solider's pay, food' or family... three rules I learned very quickly
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As an E9, I would ask this young officer if he or she were very certain they wanted me to comply with this order. If they were certain, I would comply but there would be some follow-on conversations about respect with the Battalion Commander that would probably not be as civil as my current comments to the Lieutenant. On the other hand, if they decided it might be more prudent to rescind the order, we could retreat to my office to have a conversation about respect that would be part of an ongoing mentoring relationship between us to help him or her grow in their career, related to working with NCOs. Then we would proceed based on the Lieutenant's decision at that point. I would go to attention, if that's the choice he or she made. I swore an oath to follow the orders of the officers appointed over me.
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I would think the E9 would come to attention as he should. But the Ensign or 2ndLt is going to be miserable for a long time to come.
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PO2 Marty Sharpe
In my time as a petty officer just about the most irritating thing that came around was a boot Ensign. One day they asked you how to do something. The next day they were telling you how to do it. In almost the same words you used.
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Had to save a West Point Cadet that was assigned to my company during his summer drill stuff. This was in the 80s and he tried to lock up my Platoon Sergeant who was a former hand to hand instructor for Ranger school. his feet were about six inches off the ground when we pulled the PSG of him.
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CPT (Join to see)
That is false according to Army Command Doctrine. They rank between enlisted and warrants.
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SFC (Join to see)
Had a Cadet stop me one time and ask if I was going to salute him. I asked him if he had lost his gd mind. He tried to push the issue, but I just told him to get out of my face, I wasn't in the mood to deal with him.
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COL (Join to see)
Maybe regulation, but certainly not reality. As you mentioned, a cadet has no authority. Rank without authority becomes just a pay grade.
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SGT Troy Lyons
I spent 2 years with the 2nd Aviation Detachment, the USMA flight detachment. We interacted with Cadets, Cadidiots in private, and all active duty members, bot officer and enlisted, were always treated with respect and dignity by the Cadets and vise versa. We did not salute the Cadets.
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I would and did stand at attention for a 2LT.
But two points
1: just because you can does not mean you should.
2: your actions have second and third order ramifications.
I got locked up by an AF Cpt... I stood and took the beratment.
After I went back to doing my job.
a GO that I worked for then came over asked if i needed anything?
I said no sir I'm good
The GO then asked the AF Cpt if he could have a word with her outside
She never returned to the building and her work space was boxed up by a fellow worker.
But two points
1: just because you can does not mean you should.
2: your actions have second and third order ramifications.
I got locked up by an AF Cpt... I stood and took the beratment.
After I went back to doing my job.
a GO that I worked for then came over asked if i needed anything?
I said no sir I'm good
The GO then asked the AF Cpt if he could have a word with her outside
She never returned to the building and her work space was boxed up by a fellow worker.
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When I became a Bn Co, I had an officers call. My CSM was there. I pointed to him and said, "Gentlemen, meet my alter ego. He goes where he wants, does what he wants understanding he represents me. He doesn't need your permission or have to report to you. He has my permission. Out of courtesy he may brief you on what he saw but it's not required unless he discovered a breach in rules, regulation or SOP. Any questions"? CSM looked at me with a slight grin as if to say, "All Right!!!"
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CSM Andrew Perrault
A very smart man having said that, BN CO's and his CSM have got to have each other's back.....and it sets the tone for the next two years I'm sure you had a successful command
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CPL Earl Kochis
You remind me of my LTC and CSM Sir. If a 2lt would have ever done that to my CSM they would have learned exactly why the LTC’s last name was Canon. I will never forget the relationship those two had. The blind respect taught me that the LTC knew without the CSM his wheel was broken.
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Professionals...I absolutely believe the E9 would comply, as he should - but...I also unequivocally know that after the fact the officer would run the eventual gambit of senior officers telling the 2LT, 1LT, CPT, MAJ....that it probably was not a good idea and there are other ways. I have been a commissioned officer for 25 years and have never ordered anyone to attention!!!
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MGySgt James Forward
Only time I got ordered to attention was to get promoted, receive an award and an occasional Article 15... Most Jr Officer's 1st Lt-Capt in my last command were briefed on how to handle the MGySgt's in the Command Element: Tactfully and with respect as they control your future, you will learn more from them about leadership then you learned in any school. They like coffee, lot's of coffee....Semper Fi.
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TSgt Michael Brown
Because you are probably one of the few who realize that the best type of respect is that which is earned and shouldn't be abused by trying to make a point.
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