Posted on Feb 23, 2019
Would there be a reason my OIC can recommend civilians for an award but not military?
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Recently the results of our yearly TRICARE Inpatient Satisfaction Survey (TRISS) came out. The ward I work on had the highest overall patient satisfaction for the entire Regional Healthcare Command- Atlantic, which is a pretty big thing. The commanding general paid is a visit. I asked her about the possibility of recommending all the SMs on the floor for a JSAM since it’s a joint facility. She said she couldn’t do that for some reason that didn’t make sense. Would there be some reason as to why SMs couldn’t be recommended for an award but civilians could.
Posted in these groups: 
Awards
Joint Service
Awards Joint Service
Posted 7 y ago
Responses: 8
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Unless I misunderstood your question, recommending every SM for an award, barring some high speed operators for a significant operation during combat, isn't realistic. Then, everyone wouldn't likely be recommended for the same award.
A supervising NCO, and maybe the top 2 jr enlisted, "maybe."
Not a thorough research, but it appears it may not be authorized.
DOD MANUAL 1348.33, VOLUME 4 MANUAL OF MILITARY DECORATIONS AND AWARDS: DOD JOINT DECORATIONS AND AWARDS
(1) The JSAM is awarded in the name of the Secretary of Defense to members of the U.S. Armed Forces below the grade of O-6 who, while assigned to a JDA after August 3, 1983,
distinguished themselves by outstanding performance of duty, meritorious achievement, or
service.
(2) Service members assigned or attached to a JTF as individuals (not as members of a Service unit) may be eligible for the JSAM. Members of military-specific units (i.e., Army, Navy, Marine Corps, and Air Force) assigned or attached to a JDA or JTF are not eligible for the
JSAM but retain eligibility for PMDs and unit awards from their respective Military Service.
A few impact AAMs may be an option, depending on the factors.
A supervising NCO, and maybe the top 2 jr enlisted, "maybe."
Not a thorough research, but it appears it may not be authorized.
DOD MANUAL 1348.33, VOLUME 4 MANUAL OF MILITARY DECORATIONS AND AWARDS: DOD JOINT DECORATIONS AND AWARDS
(1) The JSAM is awarded in the name of the Secretary of Defense to members of the U.S. Armed Forces below the grade of O-6 who, while assigned to a JDA after August 3, 1983,
distinguished themselves by outstanding performance of duty, meritorious achievement, or
service.
(2) Service members assigned or attached to a JTF as individuals (not as members of a Service unit) may be eligible for the JSAM. Members of military-specific units (i.e., Army, Navy, Marine Corps, and Air Force) assigned or attached to a JDA or JTF are not eligible for the
JSAM but retain eligibility for PMDs and unit awards from their respective Military Service.
A few impact AAMs may be an option, depending on the factors.
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From reading all the comment it makes a little more sense. Not gonna lie it does suck a little that we out perform our entire hospital and the Atlantic region and we don’t get much to show for it. I know providing excellent care is part of our jobs but something would have been nice for a floor moral boost. Especially when our civilian counterparts are getting acknowledged for their efforts.
It is what it is though I know we’ll keep the high standard we have and try to do even better next time around.
It is what it is though I know we’ll keep the high standard we have and try to do even better next time around.
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SPC (Join to see)
I wouldn't give up on trying to get couple/few AAMs, and some certificates.
By the way, what award did the civilians get, and are they providing the same level of care, and have the same responsibilities?
If they got a cash award, that may have been easier to do.
USAMRMC has a slide show explaining their awards policy.
With regard to the JSAM, those are for JDA/JTF. In fact, for JTF, it's not available to members of units assigned to the JDA/JTF, rather, individuals assigned or attached as an individual. Simply put, the JSAM was the wrong one to ask for.
Although there are plenty of stories of more senior folks who chased CABs and/or submitted themselves for BSM w/V, for future reference it is poor etiquette to put a CDR on the spot, or ask for blanket awards. I do applaud your boldness, though. I may have gave you a scowl at the time, but I would've likely got you a 4-day pass later.
Submit a few AAMs if the achievement meets the requirement.
For future reference,
other than combat deployments, my recollection is 5-10% of a 100-Soldier unit would be recommended for achievement awards (ARTEPs [80s evaluated 72-hour FTX], JRTC, NTC, CIP, Qrtly Significant Event [like yours]), with 1 ARCOM, 3 AAMs.
3 DA Certificates (used to be worth promotion points), and 2-3 DIV/BDE/BN Certificates.
Do your research, and give it a shot. Win again next quarter, get a few more for others who earned it. Being present doesn't mean it's earned.
I wouldn't give up on trying to get couple/few AAMs, and some certificates.
By the way, what award did the civilians get, and are they providing the same level of care, and have the same responsibilities?
If they got a cash award, that may have been easier to do.
USAMRMC has a slide show explaining their awards policy.
With regard to the JSAM, those are for JDA/JTF. In fact, for JTF, it's not available to members of units assigned to the JDA/JTF, rather, individuals assigned or attached as an individual. Simply put, the JSAM was the wrong one to ask for.
Although there are plenty of stories of more senior folks who chased CABs and/or submitted themselves for BSM w/V, for future reference it is poor etiquette to put a CDR on the spot, or ask for blanket awards. I do applaud your boldness, though. I may have gave you a scowl at the time, but I would've likely got you a 4-day pass later.
Submit a few AAMs if the achievement meets the requirement.
For future reference,
other than combat deployments, my recollection is 5-10% of a 100-Soldier unit would be recommended for achievement awards (ARTEPs [80s evaluated 72-hour FTX], JRTC, NTC, CIP, Qrtly Significant Event [like yours]), with 1 ARCOM, 3 AAMs.
3 DA Certificates (used to be worth promotion points), and 2-3 DIV/BDE/BN Certificates.
Do your research, and give it a shot. Win again next quarter, get a few more for others who earned it. Being present doesn't mean it's earned.
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1SG (Join to see) Thanks 1SG, notes take the future. I’m still working on the boldness my NCOIC doesn’t like when I ask questions about any thing. He wants me to just follow orders no with out question no matter what.
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1SG (Join to see)
SPC (Join to see)
Each NCO has their own style, which you adopt to. They don't have to adopt to your preferred style.
Following orders is your duty, unless they are unlawful. Constant questioning, gets weary quick.
When you're in charge, choose your own. I suggest you'll find it to be situation dependent, as mine was.
Whenever I took over a new position, I explained:
If I have time, and want to teach something, I will explain, so you understand my thought process and will know, generally, what I expect in case I am absent. This will also help you develop your process.
There will be times when I won't explain because the situation doesn't permit, or because I don't feel inclined.
If I give you a task without specific instructions, complete it the way you believe is best.
If I give you specific instructions, or steps, follow them precisely, as there is a reason that I may, or may not share. But, it will be obvious in the end.
Again, that was my style. I worked for NCOs who I not only thought were incompetent, I knew it. At times it appeared everyone else, including leadership knew it. But, I understood my position, and my role, and kept my thoughts to myself. I covered them by taking the initiative when I could.
Boldness is fine, when appropriate, and following lawful orders is always appropriate. If it doesn't violate the law, isn't unethical, and isn't a very clear safety violation, make it happen.
I hope you refer to AR 600-8-22, and look to some of the examples of DA Form 638 online if you need additional examples, and submit your supervisor, or the most high speed PFC on your ward for an AAM or COA.
I wish you well.
Each NCO has their own style, which you adopt to. They don't have to adopt to your preferred style.
Following orders is your duty, unless they are unlawful. Constant questioning, gets weary quick.
When you're in charge, choose your own. I suggest you'll find it to be situation dependent, as mine was.
Whenever I took over a new position, I explained:
If I have time, and want to teach something, I will explain, so you understand my thought process and will know, generally, what I expect in case I am absent. This will also help you develop your process.
There will be times when I won't explain because the situation doesn't permit, or because I don't feel inclined.
If I give you a task without specific instructions, complete it the way you believe is best.
If I give you specific instructions, or steps, follow them precisely, as there is a reason that I may, or may not share. But, it will be obvious in the end.
Again, that was my style. I worked for NCOs who I not only thought were incompetent, I knew it. At times it appeared everyone else, including leadership knew it. But, I understood my position, and my role, and kept my thoughts to myself. I covered them by taking the initiative when I could.
Boldness is fine, when appropriate, and following lawful orders is always appropriate. If it doesn't violate the law, isn't unethical, and isn't a very clear safety violation, make it happen.
I hope you refer to AR 600-8-22, and look to some of the examples of DA Form 638 online if you need additional examples, and submit your supervisor, or the most high speed PFC on your ward for an AAM or COA.
I wish you well.
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It’s a really sticky slippery slope when it comes to awards especially on active duty at her level. Civilians stay there at that one location whereas service members are ther usually two to three years. I’m not trying to give excuses just that I can see a perception that you would see it the way you asked your question. Your Supervisors up to a couple levels up as well as your peers are the ones that saw who went above and beyond Twitter work and who did there job. Giving out a blanket award especially at the Commendation Level would potentially “cheapen” the award at that unit. That’s just my Humble opinion based on the limited information provided by your question.
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Anyone can recommend someone for an award. She couldn't or wouldn't? Big difference. What service is your OIC? I have seen quirky circumstances where Navy and Air Force are stingy with awards and draconian oversight of the submissions. In the case of the Navy, the recommendations from sister service personnel had to vetted at Department level. Has the approval authority layered some rules of delegation in that are not readily known?
There could be a host of reasons why civilians could be recommended and not Service members, especially if this is fruit born from an extended long-term effort on their part outside of what the more transient service members had accomplished.
Without knowing what the Commander's award philosophy is, it's hard to tell anything else. They may look at a JSAM as a PCS award since it is Joint and harder to get. JSAMs were awarded like AAMs in my joint assignement in NATO where the approval authority was collocated. JSAMs, JCOMs, and DMSMs were routinely awarded as PCS awards. The officers tended to recommend more junior people for Joint awards for big training events and combined exercises where they contributed significantly. It was not consistent but it was better than nothing. The NATO force structure is predicated on training exercises in other places so a three or four star exercise was a big deal.
There could be a host of reasons why civilians could be recommended and not Service members, especially if this is fruit born from an extended long-term effort on their part outside of what the more transient service members had accomplished.
Without knowing what the Commander's award philosophy is, it's hard to tell anything else. They may look at a JSAM as a PCS award since it is Joint and harder to get. JSAMs were awarded like AAMs in my joint assignement in NATO where the approval authority was collocated. JSAMs, JCOMs, and DMSMs were routinely awarded as PCS awards. The officers tended to recommend more junior people for Joint awards for big training events and combined exercises where they contributed significantly. It was not consistent but it was better than nothing. The NATO force structure is predicated on training exercises in other places so a three or four star exercise was a big deal.
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1SG (Join to see)
I didn't see any multi service medical centers in the list of JDA, but I only made a cursory look, and it's definitely not a JTF. Requirement for the JSAM, based on the reference in my other post list JDA or JTF as a requirement.
I could be mistaken.
I could be mistaken.
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SPC (Join to see)
Our facility is Defense Health Agency (DHA) so it’s jointly staffed. That could also be why she can’t because it’s DHA.
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1SG (Join to see)
SPC (Join to see) - Correct, jointly staffed is not JDA or JTF. To be truthful, even as a 1SG, I believed that Soldiers assigned to a joint command were eligible, until I was writing questions for a board.
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You are NOT assigned to military Joint Task Force under the proper provisions, you are part of Regional Healthcare Facility. JSAMs are NOT a qualifying award. If you want your ENTIRE section to be officially recognized have your NCOIC make preparation for the potential submission of a unit citation for the accomplishments for the entire year. The closest qualifying unit citation would be a Superior Unit Award, but this requires a lot of work, clear achievements, documentation, and a good author. It is more likely several impact awards would be preferable to key individuals. I would not recommend asking any CG for blanket award requests in the future as they will respectfully say no for many reasons.
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Without looking at FMSWeb, I am just going to guess that the Army personnel there are assigned to an Army TDA, not a JMD or JDA. That's why no JSAM.
You guys just did very well on a survey, so take a look at those stellar performers that stepped up all year, recommend them for AAMs or ARCOMs and put the survey results as the first citation.
You guys just did very well on a survey, so take a look at those stellar performers that stepped up all year, recommend them for AAMs or ARCOMs and put the survey results as the first citation.
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Blanket award of individual decorations makes no sense. Is some level of a unit citation appropriate?
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The reason nobody can throw out a bunch of awards is Flags and Skippers have a limited amount of ammo they can shoot off. Since lower awards are delegated, that doesn't mean there's more. ACH/COMs are not on a Flag radar screen. That ammo is reserved locally for the upper third performers, preferably with even demographics. Back in the day, my allowances wouldn't cover that deep (I got creative with paper) but don't know where fruit salad mania is nowadays. Individual Awards go hand in hand with eval and promotion strategy. They are closely linked for it to work reliably. If your Command leadership doesn't execute a solid promotion strategy, good luck while they wonder why the morale went into the dumpster.
I Know I'll get a wet blanket on this one: TRISS pales in comparison to success/failure on Joint Commission. I was the regional engineer for 3 hospitals and about 14 clinics. A whole section of the evaluation I was on the hook for. We passed (Facilities were graded Excellent) and few got anything because it was our job to pass. Most, like me, got a LOC which equated to a sentence fragment in the next FITREP. That, and the party after was epic.
Also TRISS is likely similar to what's done in commercial sector. The problem with that is Medicare and other payments are linked to the scoring. Good right? If you call increased mortality a good thing because patients get less of what they need as payment is based on such things a room color preference and their feelings, have fun. Conscious health care providers know this, but also know their money isn't correctly linked to quality medical service. Additionally, any "customer satisfaction" thing tied to a "Not For Profit" (read Govt too) is an administrative check block for senior administrator promotion. It's one of the overhyped competitive areas for them. Wind up lower on the list and standby for the downhill flow. All those hospitals are still there next year, but look who gets promoted. Your skipper is likely feeling they dodged a bullet, this time.
JMUCs would be an idea, but the relevance to combat is too much of a stretch. That's as close to a participation trophy (used to be a plaque) you can get.
I Know I'll get a wet blanket on this one: TRISS pales in comparison to success/failure on Joint Commission. I was the regional engineer for 3 hospitals and about 14 clinics. A whole section of the evaluation I was on the hook for. We passed (Facilities were graded Excellent) and few got anything because it was our job to pass. Most, like me, got a LOC which equated to a sentence fragment in the next FITREP. That, and the party after was epic.
Also TRISS is likely similar to what's done in commercial sector. The problem with that is Medicare and other payments are linked to the scoring. Good right? If you call increased mortality a good thing because patients get less of what they need as payment is based on such things a room color preference and their feelings, have fun. Conscious health care providers know this, but also know their money isn't correctly linked to quality medical service. Additionally, any "customer satisfaction" thing tied to a "Not For Profit" (read Govt too) is an administrative check block for senior administrator promotion. It's one of the overhyped competitive areas for them. Wind up lower on the list and standby for the downhill flow. All those hospitals are still there next year, but look who gets promoted. Your skipper is likely feeling they dodged a bullet, this time.
JMUCs would be an idea, but the relevance to combat is too much of a stretch. That's as close to a participation trophy (used to be a plaque) you can get.
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“She said she couldn’t do that for some reason that didn’t make sense.”
Or did she say something that you didn’t understand? Because respectfully, issuing JSAMs in a blanket way for a situation as you’ve described is simply inappropriate. See DoD Manual 1348.33 v4.
Also, regardless of your position, a SPC asking a the CG for awards...is inappropriate. If the service members’ work was as exemplary as described, some fruit salad is likely to follow. (Especially if it makes the CG’s facility stand above those of her peers). But the CG generally doesn’t want to get shaken down by junior enlisted for awards.
(*a general rule of thumb is if a soldier ever has to ask for an award, an award probably isn’t warranted).
Best of luck.
Or did she say something that you didn’t understand? Because respectfully, issuing JSAMs in a blanket way for a situation as you’ve described is simply inappropriate. See DoD Manual 1348.33 v4.
Also, regardless of your position, a SPC asking a the CG for awards...is inappropriate. If the service members’ work was as exemplary as described, some fruit salad is likely to follow. (Especially if it makes the CG’s facility stand above those of her peers). But the CG generally doesn’t want to get shaken down by junior enlisted for awards.
(*a general rule of thumb is if a soldier ever has to ask for an award, an award probably isn’t warranted).
Best of luck.
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SPC (Join to see)
SGT I think you miss understood what I said. No one tried to shake down a CG for an award. I may be a SPC but I’m not stupid enough to ask a CG about that especially when awards typically are recommended at the unit level. It was brought up to my OIC because multiple people were comfused and frankly a little disheartened after she said the civilians would be getting rewarded and we wouldn’t. I was the one that happen to inquire with my OIC when she was talking to me about it. She said we do deserve to be rewarded for it because it shows dedication to our patients and exceeding the standard but she was physically unable to recommend us for the award for some reason.
I will review DOD manual 1345.33 v4 though for my own benefit.
I will review DOD manual 1345.33 v4 though for my own benefit.
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SGT (Join to see)
SPC (Join to see) - respectfully, you misunderstand what I mean. Another rallypointer wrote, “...for future reference it is poor etiquette to put a CDR on the spot, or ask for blanket awards”. By ‘shake down’, that’s what I meant.
The CG coming through for some glad-handing with the joes and shooting the sh*t is like when someone asks you, ‘hey, how’s your day going?’ It’s rhetorical. The person doesn’t really want to hear that your favorite show got cancelled or that you have a stummy-ache. They just want to hear that every is going well. (Even though they’re sure there are things that could be addressed).
In addition to *1348.33 v4, ask yourself, ‘who would be the final approval authority for any Achievement medal’? Then ask yourself if the CG is going to recommend 50 of them. There’s nothing wrong with them, but they’re low hanging fruit. Also, as an aside, generally don’t worry about other awards that others get. Ultimately, it doesn’t matter. Focus on the job, and the awards pretty much equal out in the long run.
Best of luck.
The CG coming through for some glad-handing with the joes and shooting the sh*t is like when someone asks you, ‘hey, how’s your day going?’ It’s rhetorical. The person doesn’t really want to hear that your favorite show got cancelled or that you have a stummy-ache. They just want to hear that every is going well. (Even though they’re sure there are things that could be addressed).
In addition to *1348.33 v4, ask yourself, ‘who would be the final approval authority for any Achievement medal’? Then ask yourself if the CG is going to recommend 50 of them. There’s nothing wrong with them, but they’re low hanging fruit. Also, as an aside, generally don’t worry about other awards that others get. Ultimately, it doesn’t matter. Focus on the job, and the awards pretty much equal out in the long run.
Best of luck.
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