Posted on Aug 22, 2019
SGT Physical Therapy Specialist
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I currently had surgery, and with everything going on I forgot to fill out my con-leave 4187, the day after surgery my NCO called me in knowing I was still medicated. My question is if it was your soldier would you have called the SM back in to fill out the form or would have you done it yourself ?
Posted in these groups: 71D: Legal Specialist8eb5c10a Legal Services
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SFC Retention Operations Nco
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Are you asking if an NCO would have forged your 4187 and signature in order to cover your mistake that you made prior to surgery? Or are you saying that you chose to drive while intoxicated when you could have called for a ride or an Uber?

You may not realize this, but if you're sitting at home high on opiates during a duty day and something happens (you get hurt, get lost, etc) there are huge repercussions for you and your leadership. Imagine this scenario: you're at home, medicated, you fall and break your arm, you accidentally hurt someone else, you're not present for a UA, Now a line of duty investigation determines your injury wasn't in the line of duty because you never took leave.
Or, imagine the scenario where your NCO forges the signature of their soldier and the soldier decides they don't want to get charged for the leave. Now they allege they never signed the 4187 or the DA31 and that NCO has just forged a signature, charged a SM leave, and will be looking at UCMJ and separation. Are you suggesting that you would risk your family's financial future because an NCO failed to fill out their own paperwork? An NCO who is in the medical field and should be familiar with convalescent leave? It's difficult to expect someone else to cover our own shortcomings.
So, yes I would hold another NCO to the standard of correcting their own mistakes.
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SGT Physical Therapy Specialist
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I’m not saying to forge any signature SFC, I’m simply stating would you have just started the 4187 and have the SM sign it, I’m not saying that I wasn’t responsible for the form, but just as we would do it for our joes / lower enlisted because we are there leaders, but that should change because I’m a NCO? My leaders couldn’t of helped ?. Now my wife who texted my leadership that she would bring in the forms that the hospital gave to her but my NCO insisted the he would pick it up him self from our home but still calls myself in the next morning. I’m all for holding some one to the standard of correcting there own mistake but not at the price of putting them in harms way especially while under the influence.
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SGT Chris Stephens
SGT Chris Stephens
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If your wife ad previously offered to take in the forms for you, why couldn't she drive you? You wouldn't have to get behind the wheel, thus not endangering any lives. Or take Uber or Lyft.

Also, you have to remember that different NCOs operate different ways. Some will fill out the form and then bring it to the SM to sign. Others have a ton of things on their plate and can't do that, so that is the next best option. Regardless of whether or not you would do it or agree with what they did, it comes back to the fact that you didn't fill out the form originally. Actions have consequences.
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SFC Incheon Airport Jppc Ncoic
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First off convalescent leave isn’t done with a 4187, it’s a DA 31. Now to answer your question, I would have typed it up for my Soldier, took it to him/her to sign and make sure I get the paperwork that was provided by the provider.
Although I don’t agree with how it was done, you have to own your part of not taking care of yourself, it is your responsibility to make sure everything is in order prior to your surgery.
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SSG Keith Cashion
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The question becomes this, were the medications such that if stopped by LEO you would have been charged with under the influence? If so, I would not have, but explained about the medication. The NCO could have just as easily offered to come to your place and get you to sign it there, and check on your condition as well, but not all think like that.
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SGT Physical Therapy Specialist
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Yes, the medication I’m currently taking are Percocets, the day of my surgery my wife took photos of me and the papers the surgeons gave her and she offered to take them In but my NCO stated that he would pick them up from my home himself, but instead texted me @0700 the next morning to come in or put my uniform on and report for duty.
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SSG Keith Cashion
SSG Keith Cashion
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Wow! I could say something doesn't sound right about how that was handled, but I do not understand the NCO's thinking.
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SGT Traudel Haney
SGT Traudel Haney
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I do as well, but still soldiering is taking a hard look at any situation and assessing risk factors in...even if they live on post, the risk would still endanger a life or more....
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SGT Traudel Haney
SGT Traudel Haney
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Maybe I’ve been out of uniform too long but everything has a risk factor....
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Would you call in a SM the next day after surgery, knowing that they are medicated, if they forgot to submit a convalescent leave request?
1SG Retired
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Hell yes.
You should have filled it out, as it was your duty and responsibility to do so.
I would have also given you a counseling statement for failing to do so. I would have let the corrective training begin after completion of your terminal leave.
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SGT Physical Therapy Specialist
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Understood it was my responsibility, not taking away from that, just asking if what my NCO did was correct calling in someone the day after surgery while the medication were still in SM system, I guess that is okay since someone didn’t fill out the appropriate forms, now I’m tracking.
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1SG Retired
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SGT (Join to see) your response suggests that you don't get it.
You're an NCO, and you're complaining about having to act like one. The medication in your system isn't relevant, which is the point you want to focus on.
Saying, yes, I was wrong, but.... is: BS, whining, failing to accept responsibility, etc.
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SGT Physical Therapy Specialist
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I disagree I believe having medication in your system is relevant, so what your saying and correct me if I’m wrong 1SG is that your okay with putting one of your NCO in harms way, because it is considered ( under the influence ) to fill out the correct forms ?
I never said I didnt complete what was asked of me. I was asking if it was correct of the NCO.
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1SG Retired
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SGT (Join to see) I answered what you asked.
After several posts, I completely understand why you were made to come in. That is unlikely to change for you, unless you change.
With regard to placing you in harm's way by having you come in under the influence, I responded that you didn't have to drive to the unit. If you drove under the influence, that's your fault, despite your reluctance to accept it.
I would add that I would have instructed you to followed any precautions or prohibitions against driving while taking any of the prescribed medications (anesthesia would have been worn off) because of my experience.
Yes, the NCO wasn't wrong to have you come in. It would have been optimum if he had warned you, an NCO, not to DUI, even though he should reasonably expect and NCO to know better.
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SGT Traudel Haney
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Better SM would have come to your home with paperwork in hand to assist in the hard copy signature...that is a legal issue for signature authorization...but putting you on the road endangers not only the soldier, but others as well...think about it...
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SGT Physical Therapy Specialist
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My point exactly. I thought I was going crazy for a minute. These are E-6’s who preach take care of your soldiers and that the welfare of your soldiers are your top priority but I guess your NCO’s can be put into harms way and no one would bat an eye. I don’t know if this is has any legal error on his part.
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SFC Ralph E Kelley
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Edited >1 y ago
I would visit them, but realistically the commander can ask their (if they're married) wife.
OR if not married he can direct the 1SG to bring him the form and sign it himself "For" the soldier.
When the soldier comes off medication then the soldier can decide himself.
BUT if the soldier is still in the hospital I'm pretty certain that the convalescent leave will not begin until he's discharged - upon which he will be returned to his unit to sign out.
That may not be the language of the regulations, however I think its closer to what most units follow - mind you I retired in 1993.
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SPC Tony Ross
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From what I read in AR 600-8-10 paragraph 5-3, I interpret it as commander’a discretion to how and whether the paperwork should be filled out and when. If the physician says you need the con-leave and it’s approved without the 4187, it should be able to wait until the meds wear off but that is the opinion of a Legal Spec who hasn’t delved into the ARs in over 20 years.
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Maj John Bell
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I'd have taken care of you. But when you returned to duty, you'd know you screwed up. Your past history and reputation would determine the intensity of the scolding.
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SFC Ralph E Kelley
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I got an private message via my home email about this so I decide to express why I disagree in this forum: I really can't see the different in your CO ordering you to Convalescence Leave in peacetime (that 'FOR' signature to mentioned in my earlier response) and your being wounded on a battlefield. Pretty sure no one flagged down a battle MEDEVAC trying to get a soldier's signature on the Convalescence DA4187.
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CW4 Craig Urban
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I got hepatitis the non infectious type on a Medivac from McGuire to Travis on a long 4th of July weekend. This is when I was at Fort Belvor doing AIT. I got back to AIT on time. We and some buddies went to the bowling alley to have a beer. I remember black label. It was cheap. My buddy looks at my eyes and says they are all yellow. Immediately takes me to the hospital. They quarantine me for 7 days. At the end they gave me 30 days at home to recover. I did not fill out some stupid 4187. Your NCO should do it.
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SGT Chris Stephens
SGT Chris Stephens
>1 y
Unfortunately, in today's Army, when there is a planned surgery and convalescent leave, that stupid 4187 is what allows them to be on said convalescent leave. Without it, the soldier would be required to be at his appointed place of duty. Whether you like it or not, it's a requirement. Plus, an NCO can't forge his signature on the 4187.
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MAJ Ronnie Reams
MAJ Ronnie Reams
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Why not sick quarters? Easy MR entry from duty to sick in Quarters
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