Posted on Jan 30, 2015
Would you chapter an NCO with 11.5 years of service for APFT failure 8 months before his ETS date?
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I have a fellow NCO (SSG) in my unit that has been in for 11 1/2 years and does not plan to reenlist. He is currently 8 months from his ETS date. He has failed the last three APFTs (Run event) but is steadily improving, about 1 minute improvement each test. He's never been in trouble for misconduct and has never had any UCMJ against him in all his career thus far. The chain of command has initiated chapter preceedings but haven't followed through with it just yet. The commander has already imposed a bar to reenlistment. He has 98 days of leave which would put him on terminal leave in about 5 months. He's only been counseled for APFT failure once and they will not give him any diagnostic APFTs. All three have been record APFTs back to back. He is wanting to submit a 90 day school drop which would put him out of here (if approved) by April on terminal leave but is afraid there will be push back from the chain.
A little background on the guy, he came to the unit on a compassionate reassignment last April due to his child's medical needs and about 5 months after he got here he was sent over to ACAP to work there on a 6 month rotation. At this point he had already failed the APFT once. There is no organized PT where he is so he is left to do PT on his own time.
What are your thoughts on this? Should his command have sent him to work at ACAP given his situation with his assignment and the APFT? Should he be chaptered or would you just let him ETS?
A little background on the guy, he came to the unit on a compassionate reassignment last April due to his child's medical needs and about 5 months after he got here he was sent over to ACAP to work there on a 6 month rotation. At this point he had already failed the APFT once. There is no organized PT where he is so he is left to do PT on his own time.
What are your thoughts on this? Should his command have sent him to work at ACAP given his situation with his assignment and the APFT? Should he be chaptered or would you just let him ETS?
Edited 11 y ago
Posted 11 y ago
Responses: 72
I can only speak of what I would aimce I had a similar situation on my 1st company command: let him ETS and move on. If he desires to re-enlisted then he need to overcome a few hurdles , then let him re-up. Commanders have some discretion since at the end we are dealing with human beings.
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What I would like to know is does he have a history of APFT failure prior to these events? Why has he failed the last three events on the run was its a few seconds or by ten minutes? I would be hard pressed to kick a junior NCO out just over an APFT. If he was a productive NCO that is still doing his job and has a good history I would let him ETS rather than be petty. The chain of command has a learning moment from this if the pay attention.
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I would let him ETS with dignity. I entered the Army in 1978 when Vietnam vets were coming back in large numbers. Back then my platoon Sergeant was grossly obese. But he had paid his dues. He'd been in the bush and now he's out just waiting to punch his ticket. As a soldier I wouldn't want him fighting next to me necessarily while at the same time he might just be the soldier I want next to me because he knew stuff. I understand the AFPT which they were just starting to crack down on when I left. I've always had a thin build and I was a letterman cross country runner in high school. I could drop in a 4.5 minute cross country mile bringing me in just under 9 minutes. But not everybody can do that. How did he do on the rest of the AFPT? If he's got a child with medical needs he's going to really need his military benefits. If he's so close to terminal ETS screw with a guy? Oh wait. Let me guess. His company Commander he's just got his Captain bars and needs to make a name for himself. Or does it go higher up in the chain than that? Who did he piss off? Let the man finish out his time and retire.
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I am surprised by the number of individuals that opt to allow this SSG to remain in the Army and ETS as contracted; many with a rank that is that of a leader that is absolutely responsible for adherence of the standards by subordinates.
I have many issues with this.
First, the APFT guidance is no less than 4 months between record APFTs (unless the CDR and Soldier both think the Soldier is ready). This SSG hasn’t passed an APFT in at least 12 months, if the post is accurate and all things are being done IAW regulation.
Second, good order and discipline isn’t about individual Soldiers. How many of you have seen Soldiers in your units that just shouldn’t be in the Army? Every Soldier that is of lower rank sees this SSG and thinks “standards are only for us I guess”. These scenarios effect morale, and very often effect retention rates.
This situation also, with little doubt, makes the SSG ineffective at leading any type of Soldier. If the SSG makes any on the spot correction, and the Soldier knows that the SSG cannot pass an APFT, he will lose that much more respect. An NCO that cannot adhere to standards themselves are going to have no success in leading other Soldiers to adhere to standards.
How is the Commander going to justify chattering a SPC for the exact same infraction when they let the SSG go for nearly two years without passing an APFT with no extenuating circumstances except he didn’t do week with the responsibility of doing PT on his own?
Someone commented the SSG was given a bad hand. The reason it seems he was sent to SFL-TAP to work was to give him a more flexible schedule to deal with his personal issues. The reason he should stay at SFL-TAP is to keep him away from Soldiers.
A Bar to Continued Service became a punitive tool not too long ago. Meaning, if the conditions aren’t met to overcome the bar after 6 total months, separation must be initiated.
There are TWO reasons, in accordance with regulation, that this Soldier should be chartered. Let’s not continue letting standards dip to the lowest level possible just so we as leaders aren’t the bad guy. This Soldier needs to go.
A standard ignored is a new standard set. Took me many years as a young Soldier to figure out what that meant.
I have many issues with this.
First, the APFT guidance is no less than 4 months between record APFTs (unless the CDR and Soldier both think the Soldier is ready). This SSG hasn’t passed an APFT in at least 12 months, if the post is accurate and all things are being done IAW regulation.
Second, good order and discipline isn’t about individual Soldiers. How many of you have seen Soldiers in your units that just shouldn’t be in the Army? Every Soldier that is of lower rank sees this SSG and thinks “standards are only for us I guess”. These scenarios effect morale, and very often effect retention rates.
This situation also, with little doubt, makes the SSG ineffective at leading any type of Soldier. If the SSG makes any on the spot correction, and the Soldier knows that the SSG cannot pass an APFT, he will lose that much more respect. An NCO that cannot adhere to standards themselves are going to have no success in leading other Soldiers to adhere to standards.
How is the Commander going to justify chattering a SPC for the exact same infraction when they let the SSG go for nearly two years without passing an APFT with no extenuating circumstances except he didn’t do week with the responsibility of doing PT on his own?
Someone commented the SSG was given a bad hand. The reason it seems he was sent to SFL-TAP to work was to give him a more flexible schedule to deal with his personal issues. The reason he should stay at SFL-TAP is to keep him away from Soldiers.
A Bar to Continued Service became a punitive tool not too long ago. Meaning, if the conditions aren’t met to overcome the bar after 6 total months, separation must be initiated.
There are TWO reasons, in accordance with regulation, that this Soldier should be chartered. Let’s not continue letting standards dip to the lowest level possible just so we as leaders aren’t the bad guy. This Soldier needs to go.
A standard ignored is a new standard set. Took me many years as a young Soldier to figure out what that meant.
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SGM (Join to see)
I sure wish this forum was like Facebook and I could fix my typos. Sorry, I was t wearing my glasses!
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Honestly, this reads like he is not keeping up with the standards so he should be pushed out from the service.. Unless, he has other medical or physical issues that are not addressed here then an eval should be granted. Too many service members are serving or have left the service with medical, physical or psychological issues that at times they are not even aware of until months/years later.
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I guarantee back in the 80's it wouldnt be a question. They were on a rampage against marginal physical fitness and would much rather boot a stellar soldier or NCOs for being within 10% of their target weight/ body fat and keep a block head who was skinny as a rail. No, I didn't get booted for this, I just watched several NCO's get RIF'd at 17 and 18 years for this, mostly due to health issues. Now that the wars are winding down I'm sure there will be another run of "cleaning house".
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You gave the man three chances to improve himself and he refused. Separate immediately.
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