Posted on Dec 9, 2020
Would you obey an illegal or unconstitutional order?
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What are your professional and personal views on the right and the duty of active and retired military to disobey illegal or unconstitutional orders? (Ref. UCMJ, Articles 90, 91, 92; and the Fourth Geneva Convention.)
For instance, in the event a sitting U.S. President loses an election in the electoral college, and as a means to stay in office declares martial law or invokes the 1807 Insurrection Act, should you obey such an order? Would you individually be willing to comply?
Let's have a frank and friendly discussion on this vital topic....
e.g., https://www.witf.org/2020/06/02/president-trump-says-hell-deploy-military-to-states-if-they-dont-stop-violent-protests/
For instance, in the event a sitting U.S. President loses an election in the electoral college, and as a means to stay in office declares martial law or invokes the 1807 Insurrection Act, should you obey such an order? Would you individually be willing to comply?
Let's have a frank and friendly discussion on this vital topic....
e.g., https://www.witf.org/2020/06/02/president-trump-says-hell-deploy-military-to-states-if-they-dont-stop-violent-protests/
UCMJ
Martial Law
Election 2020
Civil Affairs
Orders
Edited 5 y ago
Posted 5 y ago
Responses: 203
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Question 2: Are you remotely qualified to determine what is or is not an illegal or unconstitutional order?
BLUF: By the time a mission order reaches you, it's already been vetted by an ocean of military lawyers. The odds that they all missed something you caught are pretty slim.
BLUF: By the time a mission order reaches you, it's already been vetted by an ocean of military lawyers. The odds that they all missed something you caught are pretty slim.
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SFC Michael Hasbun
SFC Casey O'Mally so your premise is that Basic Training made you a constitutional law scholar?
Well, that's certainly a thought. I'm not sure it's a good one, but that didn't stop you from having it...
Well, that's certainly a thought. I'm not sure it's a good one, but that didn't stop you from having it...
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SFC Casey O'Mally
SFC Michael Hasbun - No, Basic Training didn't make me a Constitutional Law scholar. And I didn't even come close to implying that, either.
I cannot speak for the other Armed Services (although I believe they are very similar), but the Army EXPECTS Soldiers OF ALL RANKS to understand the difference between a lawful and unlawful order. THAT is what they are taught in Basic Training. Obey lawful orders, don't obey unlawful ones.
Back in about 2010 (give or take a few years) the Army unveiled the "strategic corporal" recognizing that lower and lower echelons of leaders and Soldiers are having to make more and more meaningful decisions.
So.. "are your even remotely qualified to determine" a lawful order? Yes. EVERY SINGLE SOLDIER IN THE ARMY IS.
I cannot speak for the other Armed Services (although I believe they are very similar), but the Army EXPECTS Soldiers OF ALL RANKS to understand the difference between a lawful and unlawful order. THAT is what they are taught in Basic Training. Obey lawful orders, don't obey unlawful ones.
Back in about 2010 (give or take a few years) the Army unveiled the "strategic corporal" recognizing that lower and lower echelons of leaders and Soldiers are having to make more and more meaningful decisions.
So.. "are your even remotely qualified to determine" a lawful order? Yes. EVERY SINGLE SOLDIER IN THE ARMY IS.
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SFC Michael Hasbun
SFC Casey O'Mally and that is an individual decision made on gut instinct, not through any specialized training or education.
Everyone has the right to refuse an order they feel is unlawful, and they also have to deal with the consequences (AKA UCMJ) when they find out the barracks lawyers were wrong.
People get kicked out every day for refusing orders they THINK are unlawful.
Everyone has the right to refuse an order they feel is unlawful, and they also have to deal with the consequences (AKA UCMJ) when they find out the barracks lawyers were wrong.
People get kicked out every day for refusing orders they THINK are unlawful.
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SFC Casey O'Mally
SFC Michael Hasbun - At the Private - SPC level, sure. But beginning in BLC, we start teaching our leaders about legal issues in a very real and formalized sense, with increasing levels of complexity as Soldiers rise through the ranks.
And even as Private, we still teach SOME specialized legal training, i.e. the law of land warfare, EO/EEO, and sexual harassment. In my last AIT (I was a SFC, but most of my class was PVT or PV2) we had extended blocks of training on legal issues pertinent to intelligence collection, retention, and dissemination, as well as legal and illegal questioning techniques, legal and illegal collection targets, and proper reporting of illegal intelligence acts.
You characterization of "gut instinct without specialized training or education" is patently absurd. Now, it is DEFINITELY true that Soldiers WILL be faced with tough decisions for which they have NOT been specifically trained. But even then, they have a strong foundation to fall back upon, AND a JAG office to reference, when necessary.
And even as Private, we still teach SOME specialized legal training, i.e. the law of land warfare, EO/EEO, and sexual harassment. In my last AIT (I was a SFC, but most of my class was PVT or PV2) we had extended blocks of training on legal issues pertinent to intelligence collection, retention, and dissemination, as well as legal and illegal questioning techniques, legal and illegal collection targets, and proper reporting of illegal intelligence acts.
You characterization of "gut instinct without specialized training or education" is patently absurd. Now, it is DEFINITELY true that Soldiers WILL be faced with tough decisions for which they have NOT been specifically trained. But even then, they have a strong foundation to fall back upon, AND a JAG office to reference, when necessary.
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If a sitting president was to invoke Martial Law after losing an lawful election, I personally would not in any way or form obey any order from said ex-president. The sitting president losing by Electoral votes is no longer president. He/she must, by constitutional law, VACATE immediately. He/she is no longer president. This question has to do by the Loser of the 2020 Nov. 8 elections. Trump lost not only by popular vote of over 81 million US citizens. But by a landslide of 306 Electoral College Votes. Trump, to date, has sued some 63 times to over turn the a legal election. Trump has lost 63 of those suits. There is no provisions in our US Constitution to be reinstate. There is no such animal. Trump lost. instead of Trumps continued divisions of our USA. Trump and his minions has got to move on. Of course this will never happen. Trump is a Seditionist. Trump was the cause, along with others ,manufactured the insurrection of 01/06/2021. DONALD JOHN TRUMP is a TRAITOR to the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, and should be treated as a Traitor........PERIOD!!!!!!!!
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