Posted on Dec 9, 2020
Judah Freed
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What are your professional and personal views on the right and the duty of active and retired military to disobey illegal or unconstitutional orders? (Ref. UCMJ, Articles 90, 91, 92; and the Fourth Geneva Convention.)

For instance, in the event a sitting U.S. President loses an election in the electoral college, and as a means to stay in office declares martial law or invokes the 1807 Insurrection Act, should you obey such an order? Would you individually be willing to comply?

Let's have a frank and friendly discussion on this vital topic....


e.g., https://www.witf.org/2020/06/02/president-trump-says-hell-deploy-military-to-states-if-they-dont-stop-violent-protests/
Edited >1 y ago
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Responses: 210
SGT John Baker
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The primary thing that holds us together as a nation and a people is our Consitution and our Bill of Rights. The downside to that is from almost day one of it being ratified, our assorted politicians have been trying to find ways around our Consitution, even though they swore an oath to uphold and defend it.
I believe active duty personnel should think real hard before they disobey an order from a superior officer, no matter what reason they might have. The Constitution will not protect them should they disobey an order, at least not before damage has been done to their career. Upper flag ranks have a little more leeway. We are a nation of law, millions of laws. How can any military personnel be aware of the thousands of laws that might negate whatever reason they might have for disobeying a direct order?
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Capt Edward Egan
Capt Edward Egan
>1 y
Politicians and senior officers also took the oath to support and defend the Constitution. When they violate that oath we should make them pay.
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SGT Jerry Hoy
SGT Jerry Hoy
>1 y
Austin and Milley are nothing but politicians. They couldn't have screwed up the withdrawal from Afghanistan any worse than what they did. What happen to the etho, "never leave a military member behind".
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LtCol Dennis Ivan
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"Civilian supporter"... what are you doing here? Take your sh1t back to some little kiddy hippie site you usually play on.
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PO1 John Hudson
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As a retiree. Had that occurred during my active service I would have relied on the direction of my superiors. If I found their actions also outside the realm of constitutional authority, I would put my objection in writing up the chain of command. Hopefully our system of checks and will protect us. Our democracy is fragile and we as soldiers must never take side. We have an oath that guides us. We don’t need sea lawyers telling us what we should do or think.
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LtCol Bruce Janis
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No more than if the President. Told you to violate the Constitution, say the 2nd Amendment. That the answer you were looking for?
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MSgt Bill Rentz
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No. Just ask the Nazis how that argument worked out for them.
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TSgt Infantryman
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Judah Freed you must be part of the woke, cancel up yours culture trying to divide this nation.
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LTJG Roy Shine
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Our oaths were/are to defend the Constitution.
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COL Armor Officer
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UCMJ Articles 90, 91, 92 require obedience to all lawful orders. Not only should an unlawful order not be obeyed, obeying such an order can result in criminal prosecution. Military courts have long held that military members are accountable for their actions even while following orders. "I was following orders," is not a defense. All that being said, you better be on the right side of the issue.
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CWO3 Robert Fong
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Well, the first thing we need to clear off the deck is the issue of the Insurrection Act. That Act is constitutional and may be invoked by the President. Now, is the Insurrection Act being properly applied? In my rarefied judicial and constitutional knowledge, I believe that the President would be in error. Now, the military is controlled by the civilian leadership not the other way around. It is not our job to second guess decisions for obvious reasons. Martial Law is a tool that would be used when the entire nation has lost all governmental control and law and order across the nation. Again, wrong tool. We are now placed in a decision conundrum that soldiers faced in 1860 when General Robert E. Lee and others faced the same question. Why do I say this? Because we will have to make a decision that asks each of us to decide was the election fair or not, and was the President given all avenues of appeal or not. If you side with the President, then you are a "Confederate" so-to-speak. If you believe the President got fair treatment, then you are a Unionist. Note: This is why President Trump did not exercise either option because it would be the start of another Civil War. Now, when considering other orders given by a superior knowing they are illegal I'd have to disobey and inform the next in the chain of my decision.
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CPL Bruce Ailiff
CPL Bruce Ailiff
3 y
Maybe a civil war is what we need to get rid of the Communists, Socialists, Globalists, or whatever else you want to call those who sell us out daily.
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CWO3 Robert Fong
CWO3 Robert Fong
3 y
CPL, while I appreciate your commenting, you need to be a bit more careful on what you write. Remember, the Woke DoD, SECDEF, and DA all monitor this site and will look for any reason or excuse to fry you for your conservative opinions or thoughts. Frankly, I support the 1st Amendment, but there are others in the chain who do not. By the same token, ensure your views comport with Regulations and the edicts of SCOTUS.
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Maj Ph D Student
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If you plan on disobeying an order because you believe it's illegal or unconstitutional...be sure you really understand the law or the constitution. What you personally think won't really matter if you can't back it up with precedent, references, and specifics of how you tried to obey as much of the order as possible without crossing the line. On the other hand, you are responsible if you knowingly obey an unlawful order.
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LCpl Glenn Kellar
LCpl Glenn Kellar
3 y
In the event, I hope to say I would risk the brig. The events of the last year seemed pretty cut and dried. Under orders, I would have fired on Some civilians in anger. Although I didn't like the outcome, I would have honored the will of the electorate and refused to be part of a coup. I'm glad it never became a question. It was sloppily, but correctly managed.
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