Posted on Dec 9, 2020
Would you obey an illegal or unconstitutional order?
59.9K
1.33K
550
113
109
4
What are your professional and personal views on the right and the duty of active and retired military to disobey illegal or unconstitutional orders? (Ref. UCMJ, Articles 90, 91, 92; and the Fourth Geneva Convention.)
For instance, in the event a sitting U.S. President loses an election in the electoral college, and as a means to stay in office declares martial law or invokes the 1807 Insurrection Act, should you obey such an order? Would you individually be willing to comply?
Let's have a frank and friendly discussion on this vital topic....
e.g., https://www.witf.org/2020/06/02/president-trump-says-hell-deploy-military-to-states-if-they-dont-stop-violent-protests/
For instance, in the event a sitting U.S. President loses an election in the electoral college, and as a means to stay in office declares martial law or invokes the 1807 Insurrection Act, should you obey such an order? Would you individually be willing to comply?
Let's have a frank and friendly discussion on this vital topic....
e.g., https://www.witf.org/2020/06/02/president-trump-says-hell-deploy-military-to-states-if-they-dont-stop-violent-protests/
Edited 5 y ago
Posted 5 y ago
Responses: 203
The article has nothing to do with the question!!! According to the UCMJ no member of the military is bound by an illegal order, regardless of who issued it. But, the individual receiving the order is responsible for determining its legality. Remember orders come down the chain, so generally speaking, your commander (GO, Col, Cpt, etc) have already determined the “order” is legal (maybe).
(0)
(0)
I am bound by my oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States of America against all enemies foreign and domestic....so No!
(0)
(0)
Well you can argue it's constitutionality in court... Which is the arena for matters of law.
(0)
(0)
There are several points to make. First one is a famous psychological experiment involving a test subject told to apply an electric shock to someone. Despite the person receiving the shock exhibiting extreme discomfort the subject still administered the shock because they were encouraged and given authority. . Second point. During the war on terror two American citizens were executed with out a trial, a finding of fact justifying the order etc. The executions were under the order of a President by drone strike. One of those executed was a 16 year old. I feel this was an unconstitutional order yet I don’t see much discussion.The third is POWs taken during the war on terror. Some of them were sent to countries that preform “ wet work”. Wet work is assignations, and torture. Are those that gave prisoners over to these activities guilty of violating the rules of war and the constitution? What about the United States water boarding? Our monsters and evil doesn’t dwell in the deep dark of night but in the gray gloom of night fall and in the shadows in our hearts.
(0)
(0)
What is an unconstitutional order? Judah, your sound like a "would a, could a, and what if" sort of person. I don't remember "martial law" being declared within the past 50 years. However, the following is a listing of times "martial law" was declared:
American Revolution
New Orleans in War of 1812
Nauvoo, Illinois, during the Illinois Mormon War (1843)
Utah War (1857)
Baltimore (1861)
Ex parte Milligan (1863)
The Great Chicago Fire (1871)
Coeur d'Alene, Idaho (1892)
San Francisco earthquake of 1906
Colorado Coalfield War (1914 and 1917)
West Virginia Coal Wars (1920-1921)
Minneapolis, Minnesota (1934)
San Francisco, California (1934)
Territory of Hawaii in World War II (1941-1944)
Russell County, Alabama (1954–55)
Freedom Riders (1961)
American Revolution
New Orleans in War of 1812
Nauvoo, Illinois, during the Illinois Mormon War (1843)
Utah War (1857)
Baltimore (1861)
Ex parte Milligan (1863)
The Great Chicago Fire (1871)
Coeur d'Alene, Idaho (1892)
San Francisco earthquake of 1906
Colorado Coalfield War (1914 and 1917)
West Virginia Coal Wars (1920-1921)
Minneapolis, Minnesota (1934)
San Francisco, California (1934)
Territory of Hawaii in World War II (1941-1944)
Russell County, Alabama (1954–55)
Freedom Riders (1961)
(0)
(0)
Absolutely not. I would not obey an illegally or unconstitutional order. That is a big reason that I got out after 2 years. I played the game while in but was glad to ETS and be a civilian again. Now as a civilian I can coment about the worthless leadership in washington and no butter bar can do nothing about it. Seniour officers and NCO's are fine but I would never last in the military. I did just fine in construction, have a good pension and loved every minute. Not the 2 years in the Army.
(0)
(0)
My recollection is that DOD & it’s members are SUPPOSED to BEHAVE in an apolitical manner; the higher the rank, the more you’re supposed to keep your mouth shut. Of course this post “stirred the pot.” As a LTC, I was once told by another LTC (date of rank higher than mine) that “your job is to protect the rights of free speech, not to enjoy them.” Didn’t like it, but had to agree with him. Deployed ‘05 through ‘06, the cabal of Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, & Wolfewicz in charge, while we were inundated w/thousands of wounded, injured, sick. I still have calluses on my tongue from biting it, because I was leading a LRMC dept that got soldiers home to further care & their families. My mission mattered. My opinion did not, & my political opinion would have had created problems for the mission.
In today’s massive national & political divisions, it is vitally important that DOD & its members keep their opinions private, & I don’t mean on NON-PRIVATE web sites. Just shut the hell up, REMBER YOUR OATH & YOUR MISSION. Then leave the military & talk as much as you want.
In today’s massive national & political divisions, it is vitally important that DOD & its members keep their opinions private, & I don’t mean on NON-PRIVATE web sites. Just shut the hell up, REMBER YOUR OATH & YOUR MISSION. Then leave the military & talk as much as you want.
(0)
(0)
From my own experience perhaps, "have you obeyed an illegal order", might be a better question. Now, experiencing nearly four score years of life, I can say without hesitation I would not obey such orders today. But, when living less than two decades of life, and in frightful country, my answer was an unfaltering "yes sir".
(0)
(0)
Is the 1807 Insurrection Act law? If it is, then I'd ask is the current sitting President still the CNC? So to reframe the question, is the current President of the United States guilty of a crime when invoking the provisions of a lawful Act. No! Therefore, it is a lawful order regardless of reason, which the military is not equipped to analyze but for Constitutional lawyers. Now, if the Constitutional Rights of citizens are in jeopardy and states have not taken steps to stop, then the President is within his right. Now absent all the lawful reasons, and taking at face the statement above, then the Secretary of Defense can order the military to stand down and for any member to do otherwise would be in error.
This is why individual members do not make decisions to obey or not, therefore there is a command structure led by a civilian leadership who has access to more lawyers than you can shake a stick at. As for me, I wait to see what shakes out of the Bridge. The Insurrection Act order is for the SECDEF not for individual members. Now you know why lawyers make tons of money and drive Maserati and Beamers.
This is why individual members do not make decisions to obey or not, therefore there is a command structure led by a civilian leadership who has access to more lawyers than you can shake a stick at. As for me, I wait to see what shakes out of the Bridge. The Insurrection Act order is for the SECDEF not for individual members. Now you know why lawyers make tons of money and drive Maserati and Beamers.
(0)
(0)
Of course not!. The UCMJ specifically states that military personnel must follow "lawful" orders.
(0)
(0)
Read This Next


UCMJ
Martial Law
Election 2020
Civil Affairs
Orders
