Posted on Dec 9, 2020
Judah Freed
59.9K
1.33K
550
113
109
4
41bc2e56
What are your professional and personal views on the right and the duty of active and retired military to disobey illegal or unconstitutional orders? (Ref. UCMJ, Articles 90, 91, 92; and the Fourth Geneva Convention.)

For instance, in the event a sitting U.S. President loses an election in the electoral college, and as a means to stay in office declares martial law or invokes the 1807 Insurrection Act, should you obey such an order? Would you individually be willing to comply?

Let's have a frank and friendly discussion on this vital topic....


e.g., https://www.witf.org/2020/06/02/president-trump-says-hell-deploy-military-to-states-if-they-dont-stop-violent-protests/
Edited 5 y ago
Avatar feed
Responses: 203
LTJG Roy Shine
0
0
0
Our oaths were/are to defend the Constitution.
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
COL Armor Officer
0
0
0
UCMJ Articles 90, 91, 92 require obedience to all lawful orders. Not only should an unlawful order not be obeyed, obeying such an order can result in criminal prosecution. Military courts have long held that military members are accountable for their actions even while following orders. "I was following orders," is not a defense. All that being said, you better be on the right side of the issue.
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
CWO3 Robert Fong
0
0
0
Well, the first thing we need to clear off the deck is the issue of the Insurrection Act. That Act is constitutional and may be invoked by the President. Now, is the Insurrection Act being properly applied? In my rarefied judicial and constitutional knowledge, I believe that the President would be in error. Now, the military is controlled by the civilian leadership not the other way around. It is not our job to second guess decisions for obvious reasons. Martial Law is a tool that would be used when the entire nation has lost all governmental control and law and order across the nation. Again, wrong tool. We are now placed in a decision conundrum that soldiers faced in 1860 when General Robert E. Lee and others faced the same question. Why do I say this? Because we will have to make a decision that asks each of us to decide was the election fair or not, and was the President given all avenues of appeal or not. If you side with the President, then you are a "Confederate" so-to-speak. If you believe the President got fair treatment, then you are a Unionist. Note: This is why President Trump did not exercise either option because it would be the start of another Civil War. Now, when considering other orders given by a superior knowing they are illegal I'd have to disobey and inform the next in the chain of my decision.
(0)
Comment
(0)
CPL Bruce Ailiff
CPL Bruce Ailiff
>1 y
Maybe a civil war is what we need to get rid of the Communists, Socialists, Globalists, or whatever else you want to call those who sell us out daily.
(1)
Reply
(0)
CWO3 Robert Fong
CWO3 Robert Fong
>1 y
CPL, while I appreciate your commenting, you need to be a bit more careful on what you write. Remember, the Woke DoD, SECDEF, and DA all monitor this site and will look for any reason or excuse to fry you for your conservative opinions or thoughts. Frankly, I support the 1st Amendment, but there are others in the chain who do not. By the same token, ensure your views comport with Regulations and the edicts of SCOTUS.
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
Maj Ph D Student
0
0
0
If you plan on disobeying an order because you believe it's illegal or unconstitutional...be sure you really understand the law or the constitution. What you personally think won't really matter if you can't back it up with precedent, references, and specifics of how you tried to obey as much of the order as possible without crossing the line. On the other hand, you are responsible if you knowingly obey an unlawful order.
(0)
Comment
(0)
LCpl Glenn Kellar
LCpl Glenn Kellar
>1 y
In the event, I hope to say I would risk the brig. The events of the last year seemed pretty cut and dried. Under orders, I would have fired on Some civilians in anger. Although I didn't like the outcome, I would have honored the will of the electorate and refused to be part of a coup. I'm glad it never became a question. It was sloppily, but correctly managed.
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
AA Loreen Silvarahawk
0
0
0
Simply put - No!
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
Sgt Jude Eschete
0
0
0
This isn't even a discussion. It's black and white. It is every servicemember's duty to not obey illegal orders. Especially an order that is such a blatant violation of the constitution. Even if I suffered consequences of it from leadership who agreed with the order, at least I know I did the right thing. We swear an oath to the constitution, not the president, and we swear to carry out and obey lawful orders.
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
MSgt Mayo Sifford
0
0
0
I believe, given the circumstances, I would obey the order and seek justification later. Blatently disobeying a direct order can get one shot. I would not comply with an order to fire, for example, on unarmed civilians, without a convincing explanation. Much depends on the circumstances.
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
SFC Melvin Brandenburg
0
0
0
No
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
CPT Special Forces Officer
0
0
0
Okay, who is Judah Freed and why is he on RP without a status indicator?
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
SSgt Michael Bowen
0
0
0
Edited 5 y ago
Only if there is definitive proof That the election itself was a fraud in order to take power and control of the government . because That would be an insurrection from within . But i Naively think there would be a true and fair investigation and if evidence was allowed to be presented and it was proven fraud did in fact undermine the election the legislature would invalidate the election tighten and plug the holes and hold another True and fair election . Eliminating as much fraud as possible for the good of the Country and it's voting system . And Not ignore the fraud to protect a false impression of a secured process . Because that would only serve the interest of the people committing the fraud . And encourage more of the same in the future . Because with out consequences you will surely get more of the same and it will only get worse . But then whether or not it was Constitutional or not would be questionable . based on opinion or ideology And up to the courts to decide .
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small

Join nearly 2 million former and current members of the US military, just like you.

close