Posted on Dec 9, 2020
Would you obey an illegal or unconstitutional order?
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What are your professional and personal views on the right and the duty of active and retired military to disobey illegal or unconstitutional orders? (Ref. UCMJ, Articles 90, 91, 92; and the Fourth Geneva Convention.)
For instance, in the event a sitting U.S. President loses an election in the electoral college, and as a means to stay in office declares martial law or invokes the 1807 Insurrection Act, should you obey such an order? Would you individually be willing to comply?
Let's have a frank and friendly discussion on this vital topic....
e.g., https://www.witf.org/2020/06/02/president-trump-says-hell-deploy-military-to-states-if-they-dont-stop-violent-protests/
For instance, in the event a sitting U.S. President loses an election in the electoral college, and as a means to stay in office declares martial law or invokes the 1807 Insurrection Act, should you obey such an order? Would you individually be willing to comply?
Let's have a frank and friendly discussion on this vital topic....
e.g., https://www.witf.org/2020/06/02/president-trump-says-hell-deploy-military-to-states-if-they-dont-stop-violent-protests/
Edited 5 y ago
Posted 5 y ago
Responses: 203
You can't have a frank and friendly discussion on a question that lacks or alters fact. I am not sure the modern Soldier has any Idea what it means to disobey a lawful order or unconstitutional Order and it is quit obvious that the author is simply ignorant of how the military judicial system works.
Let me make it clear that it is any Soldiers Responsibility to Refuse an Illegal or Unconstitutional order. Which makes your question invalid. Then the rant to President Trump Makes it even worse. Soldiers are trained to use all information, and Circumstances to make decision. Then if still not sure use the COC to question such orders. Quit stirring the Shit pile to make your point.
Let me make it clear that it is any Soldiers Responsibility to Refuse an Illegal or Unconstitutional order. Which makes your question invalid. Then the rant to President Trump Makes it even worse. Soldiers are trained to use all information, and Circumstances to make decision. Then if still not sure use the COC to question such orders. Quit stirring the Shit pile to make your point.
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Disobey 101%. I had a few details around Lt. Calley's quarters. For those of you with memory that is.
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Yes & no. If I agreed with an obvious need, I would, & take my lumps like a responsible man. If I saw no immediate evidence or need / urgency, then yes, I would refuse the order, & briefly explain why, again "facing the music." It's REALLY all about taking responsibility. "You can do anything you want to, as long as you're willing to pay the price."
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SGT Mary G.
CPL Joseph Elinger I would make sure I knew precise details about what was illegal while I considered the price those would be paying who were insisting on an illegal order.
I say this knowing that illegal retribution would likely be brutal, and taking into consideration how protected, and by whom, those giving the order are.
End results: hypocrisy and crimes exposed - whistle blower treated like a criminal.
Cynical? Some, more like low expectations, mostly from 50 years of experience in that respect, worse in civilian life then military life - though not acceptable in either demographic.
I say this knowing that illegal retribution would likely be brutal, and taking into consideration how protected, and by whom, those giving the order are.
End results: hypocrisy and crimes exposed - whistle blower treated like a criminal.
Cynical? Some, more like low expectations, mostly from 50 years of experience in that respect, worse in civilian life then military life - though not acceptable in either demographic.
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No under any circumstances by definition - it's not legal or constitutional.
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It is your duty to disobey an illegal or/and unconstitutional order. If you don't, then what are you defending but a Commie Dictator in a Banana Republic. I read the Navy Regs when I was a PO2. I saw that many orders were expected to be followed simply because they came from a superior, even though they violated Navy Regs. When I left the service, I was a PO3. Don't let Brown Nose Brass (BNB) take away your humanity, your knowing right from wrong and honoring your God, Country and Self.
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Suspended Profile
IF there are questions raised BEFORE the electoral College votes then the vote should be valid only for those States that had NO CHALLENGES. Any State that HAS CHALLENGES should be held in abayance until the legal process has been completed. If it requires a forensic recount to determine the outcome? So be it... If the State can not resolve the issue because data was destroyed they should hold a new election ASAP with massive law enforcement, from OTHER States, present to ensure there is NO CHANCE of repeat CRIMES. During this time the sitting officials would stay in place, to ensure that there IS a "competent authority" until the outcome is verified. That having been said, the ones who represent the "competent authority" should have absolutely NOTHING to do with the resolution of any voter irregularities ANYWHERE and should NOT be allowed to comment on the proceedings.
From a military aspect? All of the above means that NO MILITARY ACTION WOULD BE APPROPRIATE for any reason other than a refusal to LEAVE OFFICE once honest results were established or an attempt was made to displace the sitting Government before the results were established. There should be a time limit placed upon any State with issues to resolve, at the expiration thereof the States EC votes are REMOVED from the total and their election is "Set Aside" due to malfeasance and an inability to run an honest election.
There should also be MANDATORY Federal JAIL-TIME for anyone who tries to alter or falsify any facet of an election, from voting, counting, harvesting, media suppression, platform bans, etc. The original posit said the Orders were illegal... the EC had already voted him out... so of course NOT! I took the long way around to offer a FIX for the process.
From a military aspect? All of the above means that NO MILITARY ACTION WOULD BE APPROPRIATE for any reason other than a refusal to LEAVE OFFICE once honest results were established or an attempt was made to displace the sitting Government before the results were established. There should be a time limit placed upon any State with issues to resolve, at the expiration thereof the States EC votes are REMOVED from the total and their election is "Set Aside" due to malfeasance and an inability to run an honest election.
There should also be MANDATORY Federal JAIL-TIME for anyone who tries to alter or falsify any facet of an election, from voting, counting, harvesting, media suppression, platform bans, etc. The original posit said the Orders were illegal... the EC had already voted him out... so of course NOT! I took the long way around to offer a FIX for the process.
Let’s see, my oath stated clearly to “uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic” so I believe my response would be hell no I won’t obey!! The Constitution is the highest law of the land and thus must supersede all other laws, period!
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This question is a powder keg waiting to explode. I am assuming you are referencing the recent election where there were those calling for trump to invoke the insurrection act I still believe the election was stolen by the democratic party through cheating and lying as such they did accomplish an insurrection of sorts but that is irrelevant at this point in time. We as soldiers take a sacred oath to defend and uphold the Constitution of the United States against all enemies both foreign and domestic we are also obligated by that oath to disobey and even resist orders that are contrary to the constitution in the scenario that you put forth you have to decide if you believe the order violates first the Constitution and secondly the law if you're answer is yes than again it is your duty to disobey that order even at the risk of your military career. I personally do believe Trump should have invoked the Insurrection act and I do consider the Democratic party as traitors to the American People (Citizens) but that is my opinion and I have a right to it just as any who disagree have that right
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PFC Kimberly Staiti
Capt Edward Egan Have you missed all the coverage by _The Intercept_ and last week's astounding three-part, in-depth ~series~ of exposes in _The Washington Post_? First person sources are verifying just how ugly this gets ~across~ all political viewpoints. I'm shocked at how very close we came to losing this republic. How near came to blood in our streets, a brother against brother bloodbath flowing from those sacred chambers holding our ~voices~
VOICES
....and then the takeover or purge or war or what-have-you begins and the United States is not.
Many "good" people were involved. I had a family member there.
My feelings run hard that Jan 6th couldn't have really happened on purpose. It just got out of hand. Rowdy.
An accident.
It wasn't.
We need to talk.
VOICES
....and then the takeover or purge or war or what-have-you begins and the United States is not.
Many "good" people were involved. I had a family member there.
My feelings run hard that Jan 6th couldn't have really happened on purpose. It just got out of hand. Rowdy.
An accident.
It wasn't.
We need to talk.
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LCDR Robert Russnogle
Capt Edward Egan - ???? Had a top secret clearance throughout most of my career - enlisted and commissioned. Was classified documents office twice
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Capt Edward Egan
PFC Kimberly Staiti - A close friend of mine attended President Trump's rally and then went over to the protest in front of the Capitol. BEFORE any barricades were breached, the Capitol police began firing tear gas and pellets into the crowd, transforming a legal and legitimate protest into something else. When that began, my friend left.
Any violence was initiated by the "authorities". The only actual injuries and fatalities were inflicted by the "authorities" upon unarmed protesters. After the barricades were breached and the Capitol building entered, most of those who entered (some by invitation) just wandered around like tourists. The violence was initiated, escalated, and sustained by the government forces. Unlike the "mostly peaceful protests" of the preceding year, there was no arson, vandalism (okay, some glass broken in entry), graffiti, looting or assaults on the part of the protesters.
Any violence was initiated by the "authorities". The only actual injuries and fatalities were inflicted by the "authorities" upon unarmed protesters. After the barricades were breached and the Capitol building entered, most of those who entered (some by invitation) just wandered around like tourists. The violence was initiated, escalated, and sustained by the government forces. Unlike the "mostly peaceful protests" of the preceding year, there was no arson, vandalism (okay, some glass broken in entry), graffiti, looting or assaults on the part of the protesters.
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Of course not. You have the right to question and request clarification for a order that is "unquestionable." There's the challenge. History is filled with military personnel using the defense, "I was following orders." I'm a firm believer and supporter of The Laws of Land Warfare and The Geneva Convention.
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