Posted on Dec 9, 2020
Would you obey an illegal or unconstitutional order?
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What are your professional and personal views on the right and the duty of active and retired military to disobey illegal or unconstitutional orders? (Ref. UCMJ, Articles 90, 91, 92; and the Fourth Geneva Convention.)
For instance, in the event a sitting U.S. President loses an election in the electoral college, and as a means to stay in office declares martial law or invokes the 1807 Insurrection Act, should you obey such an order? Would you individually be willing to comply?
Let's have a frank and friendly discussion on this vital topic....
e.g., https://www.witf.org/2020/06/02/president-trump-says-hell-deploy-military-to-states-if-they-dont-stop-violent-protests/
For instance, in the event a sitting U.S. President loses an election in the electoral college, and as a means to stay in office declares martial law or invokes the 1807 Insurrection Act, should you obey such an order? Would you individually be willing to comply?
Let's have a frank and friendly discussion on this vital topic....
e.g., https://www.witf.org/2020/06/02/president-trump-says-hell-deploy-military-to-states-if-they-dont-stop-violent-protests/
UCMJ
Martial Law
Election 2020
Civil Affairs
Orders
Edited 5 y ago
Posted 5 y ago
Responses: 203
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Everyone will say "no", but recent events indicate half of you would do so with a smile...
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SFC Michael Hasbun
Capitol riot: Videos shows men beat, drag officer into savage mob
New video from the Capitol riot investigation shows one of the most violent assaults on police from January 6.» Subscribe to WUSA9: https://bit.ly/2lO8e2FFOL...
SGT Jerry Hoy maybe you can find him in this crowd?
Or did you not know there was video footage of them beating that cop?
https://youtu.be/ChLoiStjaZc
Or did you not know there was video footage of them beating that cop?
https://youtu.be/ChLoiStjaZc
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SFC Michael Hasbun
SGT Jerry Hoy oh boy, we've arrived at "whatabout'ism!".
What's next? Clinton's emails?
What's next? Clinton's emails?
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Everyone will say "no", but recent events indicate half of you would do so with a smile...
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Suspended Profile
PO1 Jd Harwood - Agree, especially since they were NOT detonated and the actual 1/6 "break in" was a COP opening the doors and waving people through. The video was pretty plain... all the way up the stairs... and those guys photographed breaking an outside window? Have not found a pic of THEM inside... very suspicious.
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Leave it to a civilian to bring politics into the military. Take the stick out of the pot and quit stirring.
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It's easy to say I wouldn't. That was pounded into us. But, that requires time to consider and judge if the order is legal. Without that time, I probably would, because I trusted the person giving the order. Building trust through the ranks is underappreciated. I worked under one officer who I trusted so thoroughly, I only questioned how, not whether
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LCpl Kenny Kellar
I re-read the question. My answer still stands. I can't see myself ever committing violence on a helpless population. Now comes the question of "helpless". Would I shoot at someone throwing rocks? Maybe. Then, the issue is protection of my mates
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Suspended Profile
You should read up on Mi Lai and Lt. Caley...
LCpl Kenny Kellar
I did, it was integral to our ethics instruction in boot camp, along with Nuremburg
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It is entirely possible that, in 2024, Donald Trump could win another Presidential Election (President Grover Cleveland did something similar in the 1892 Presidential Election). The Democrats now cry "Stolen Election!" and, in January of 2025, as a means to stay in office declares martial law or invokes the 1807 Insurrection Act.
Now what will you do?
Now what will you do?
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Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis
It's interesting to analyze the situation when the shoe is on the other foot.
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MSgt Gilbert Jones
It is really funny when republications when the elections, they don't ever cry illegal election, but when a democrat wins, it's always illegal. When Al Gore won the election by votes, republications cried illegal, even though Gore won. When Clinton won, again by over three milllion the same old story. It is really a shame the republican party has to feel the need to always cheat and lie in every election. Is their self-esteem that low that they have to stoop so low? I don't say some democrats don't lie, or stretch the truth some times, but nothing like republications.
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President Trump on Monday threatened to deploy the U.S. military to cities or states that don’t take “necessary” actions to halt violent protests, saying the armed forces will “quickly solve the problem for them.”
Then Congress orders the armed forces to be deployed to halt violent protests (1/6).
Then Congress orders the armed forces to be deployed to halt violent protests (1/6).
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This is an interesting question. It is very complex and way above the pay grade of a 20 year old soldier in my mind. I will try to give you the answer a 76 year old VN vet who is lawyer about what I would have done as a 20 year old private in a combat zone. If I sincerely believed it was an illegal order -shoot a child - I would refuse on behalf of myself and my men. On your facts, I would probably ask my CO what his view was and go with what he said while trying to figure out what was really happening. That is the best I can do for you. And it is my honest opinion.
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All of us took an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic. It didn't say anything about enforcing the will of Congress, the courts, or even the president of the United States. Remember the oath you took and stop posting this bullshit.
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Please allow me to respond with a question of my own. At what point do you consider yourself to be an expert on the Constitution and on Constitutional legality ? When did the military become one of the three branches of the Federal Government? We are oath-bound to obey all lawful orders of those appointed over us. The tricky part is knowing if such orders are lawful or not. It is NOT our job to interpret whether or not the implementation of he 1807 Insurrection Act is legal. Same with Martial Law. That is the job of the Judiciary branch. Until such time as the legality has been refuted or confirmed by the Supreme Court, we are obligated to do our damn jobs in a professional military manner.
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LCpl Michael Cappello
LCpl Kenny Kellar - While I tend to agree with you, I also have issues with individuals attempting to apply their supposed "ethics" to a given situation, As I am sure you are aware, all too many people nowadays are incapable of critical thinking. Instead, they tend to apply their "feelings" rather than logic. I shudder to think what a "woke" military is capable of. I feel it is only a matter of time before we will have many instances of insurrection. in the ranks.
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LCpl Kenny Kellar
It makes for a nasty quandary indeed. I was fortunate to have outstanding leadership in that when I had question, I deferred to them. I trusted they would not have me do stupid things. I didn't always like it, but I always respected it. That was an essential part of my ethics, my own closely held beliefs
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LCpl Kenny Kellar
Our skipper, at a formation in the hot sun told us he may one day have to order us into life-endangering things. He promised he would never waste our lives. We would have done anything for him without question except how to do it. It made my life easy, I was never unsure whether to carry out his commands
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LCpl Michael Cappello
LCpl Kenny Kellar - Oooh Raah Devil Dog. I too was fortunate to have many excellent senior NCO's and Officers above me. That is what it is all about, basically, have faith in, trust of, and love for our bro0thers and sisters. Being willing to take a huge bite of the shit sandwich in order to spare those we love from having to do so themselves.
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