Posted on Dec 19, 2013
CSM Mike Maynard
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You're the CSM and you have a Platoon Sergeant that has just failed either the Army Physical Fitness Test or the Army Body Composition Program........<div><br></div><div>Leave him in position or remove him?</div><div><br></div><div>Defend your answer.</div>
Posted in these groups: P542 APFTSfc Platoon SergeantF6f0e119 ABCP
Edited >1 y ago
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SPC Rj Wasser
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Here's the thing CSM Maynard, you know the NCO better than we do. Is he just a fat body, and is he legitimately out of shape? Or was it a one off fail of the PT test? Hell, I've failed a PT test before (lesson to the new soldiers out there, running the two mile for time is not a good way to deal with a hangover.... quit drinking after that to be honest). If we're talking the BMI... well let's look at the BMI. That's a loaded scale and we all know it. Technically I fail bmi right now due to my measurements alone and I'm in the best shape of my life with around 8 percent body fat.

The devil is in the details. We don't have enough to make an honest call. My suggestion: unless the NC is an absolute dirt bag, give him another shot. Orison Swett Mardon said it best, "Most people fail, not through lack of education, or agreeable personal qualities, but from lack of dogged determination, from lack of dauntless will." Give him a chance to redeem himself; a test of will if you will.
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SPC Trista Bradley
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I actually know of a situation that this is happening in. There is a PSG who has failed APFT & HT/WT 3 times and is still in the position due to leadership not having a "regualtion" to relieve him of duty. He is still counseling his Soldiers for them failing their APFT (which I feel is not right). Does anyone know of any regulation for this?
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CSM Mike Maynard
CSM Mike Maynard
9 y
SPC Trista Bradley - it would seem that AR 623-3 would apply where it states "A “Relief for Cause” occurs when the NCO’s personal or professional characteristics, conduct, behavior, or performance of duty warrants removal in the best interest of the U.S. Army (see AR 600–20)." Additionally, it is usually two levels up that place folks in leadership positions - Bde's place 1SGs, Bn's place PSGs, Co's place SLs, and so, those are normally the folks that dictate who serve in those positions.
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SFC Dennis Yancy
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Passes in 3 months or he goes. Lead or follow is his choice
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SGM Dog Squadron Operations Sergeant Major
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This answer is simple. Remove him, regardless of the situation. If he returns to form, then you can reinstate him in another company. It's all about setting the standard and as the CSM, it is about setting the example.
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I don't really think that that it will be up to any of us in the end. To remove a soldier from there leadership position one must complete a "relief for cause" NCOER. This requires a General Officers approval which I think you will be hard pressed to get a General Officer to sign off on all "relief for causes" for a PT failure that comes a crossed his desk. But hey if your willing then maybe he is to.
CSM Mike Maynard
CSM Mike Maynard
11 y
SSG Klute - what are you referencing that states a General Officer must sign off on a RfC?

Additionally, a RfC would be proper if you are permanently removing them from the position. If removing them is corrective action until they meet the standard, then an RfC would not be required, but their lack of meeting standards would be reflected on their NCOER.
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SFC Bde Mobility Nco
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CSM,

Sorry for the late response.

You know how NCOs get blammed when their Soldiers fail at the APFT? Does the 1SG get blammed when their PSGs are an APFT failure? Is it the 1SG job to ensure his PSGs can pass an APFT? Or is it you are a PSG or SFC you should be ready on your own type thing?
Sorry if the questions seems so basic but Ive never been a 1SG or in the position yet and i always wondered that.
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CSM Mike Maynard
CSM Mike Maynard
>1 y
Great question SFC Thomas -

If the 1SG has created a climate where the expectation is that leaders always meet the standard and they have provided the PSG the training/education/time, it is the personal responsibility of that PSG to pass.

But, if the 1SG has allowed PSGs and other leaders to stay in position when they have failed to meet a standard (APFT, ABCP, Weapons, Training, etc), or the 1SG has failed to document the lack of performance on the NCOER, then the 1SG has failed to create a culture of excellence and an expectation that leaders will always meet the standard - in this case, then, yes, the 1SG should be blamed.
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SPC Brendan Kearns
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I have always seen the Army standard as the line of demarcation, if you can meet it then there is no problem, being better at pt dose not make you a better leader, in fact it is used as an excuse to allow toxic leaders into positions of influence.
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CW2 Geoff Lachance
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I'd have to put it as a case by case basis.  PSG's have earned their way!  They deserve, at the least an opportunity to make the correction.  Now, in light of the example to their subordinates, they would need to show some initiative!  I'd have to look at the total soldier before I could make any kind of decision that might jeopardize a career.

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SGT Timothy Byrd
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I would counsel him or her & allow them a chance to retake & pass or be replaced.
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CSM Mike Maynard
CSM Mike Maynard
>1 y
SGT Byrd - retake the same day? Next day?
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SSG Retired
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if a PSG fails his/her standards they should be given a chance to retake the failed section in order for them to prove themselves howev if they fail a second time then they should be replaced even if the platoon thinks the world of that PSG ad has proven themselves in the past for that PSG while I was in the serviceI actially ha 2 different PSG removed from their position1 for failig the PT Test twice and one fo failing to qualify on the rifle range and also failing to qualify on his crew served weapon twice on each weapon ithe M16 and the M2 50cal.
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CSM Mike Maynard
CSM Mike Maynard
>1 y
SSG Edwards - isn't a first-time GO a better example of "proving themselves" than a second-time GO?

Would Soldiers really "think the world" of a PSG who can't meet Army standards?


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SFC Motor Transport Operator
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CSM...the way I see it is that no one is perfect and if it happens that he/she failed a standard they should be given a second chance to make it so that they pass.  Unless they keep on failing then that's a different story. I'd more than happy to take  their spot. I hate being a civilian and part time soldier.
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