Posted on Dec 19, 2013
You Decide: Leave a Platoon Sergeant in Position if they fail an Army Standard?
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You're the CSM and you have a Platoon Sergeant that has just failed either the Army Physical Fitness Test or the Army Body Composition Program........<div><br></div><div>Leave him in position or remove him?</div><div><br></div><div>Defend your answer.</div>
APFT
Platoon Sergeant
ABCP
Edited 12 y ago
Posted 12 y ago
Responses: 61
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<p>I love this quesiton because I had this discussion with my 1SG a few years back when one of my battle's was in this is exact position. I say move him immediately.</p><p>1. He's a leader. You lead by example and what is his example? His poor example will spread through his platoon. It will be very difficult for him to enforce anything.</p><p>2. That position is too competitive and sought after to have failures in it. There is absolutely no excuse to fail APFT or Body Comp at that level. This shows lack of discipline and diligence, both unfit for that position.</p><p>3. He has at least 4 squad leaders who should be able to step into that position the same day. The platoon should keep marching without a change step. If he repairs and no one has come in to replace him, its a great example for his troops to see that EVERYONE is held to the standard and at the same time, everyone can still repair after they screw up.</p><p>There's just no good reason to leave him.</p>
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SSG (Join to see)
I definitely agree with you SSG Burns. At that level, NCOs should know that if you're injured or have medical issues, you get a profile until your mission capable. That's part of being diligent. You also have to look at the whole person concept. Hopefully he was a good NCO that has been steadily mentoring his squad leaders to become PSGs in the future anyways. Just don't make it easy for them.
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SGT Richard H.
I agree with this AFTER SFC John Gates' questions have been answered. I would want to know what else may be going on, so any actions taken are appropriate. What if the guy actually needs medical care? He may need to be replaced, but not in a disciplinary way.
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SPC Elijah J. Henry, MBA
This is exactly what I wanted to say, except that you probably said it better than I would have.
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I want to thank everyone for their responses. Really great feedback and some interesting comments/tangents.
- There is a great difference between being a SFC and a PSG, just like there is a great difference between being a SSG and a Squad Leader. There are different expectations for those in leadership positions - right or wrong, that's just the way it is. Not that it's zero tolerance or that there are unbelievably high expectations that only a few can meet. But, if you are in a leadership position, the expectation is that you currently are meeting the basic Army standards. I used APFT/ABCP as examples only, it should apply to everything expected of the leader.
- If you as a leader are flagged for failing an APFT, could you honestly grade on of your Soldiers on their APFT? Would that be hypocritical? If you don't have the moral authority to assess your Soldiers, how can you be a leader? Same as failing the ABCP. Could you honestly tape someone and let them know they don't meet the standard, knowing that you don't meet it either? Not meeting a standard and being in a leadership position places you in a precarious position that is best avoided.
- Bottom-line, I believe leaders must be meeting Army standards and if they aren't they cannot be effective and it creates a climate that you can be a leader in the Army and not meet standards. And honestly, that's what we're trying to protect here - the belief that it's ok not to meet standards.
- Now that I've expressed my opinion on whether or not they should be moved out of position, the question then becomes how do you do this? Is your goal to make an example because of their flagrant lack of regard for standards or is this a person that is great at everything else and you want them to be effective later on. I think this is where the "compassion/empathy" and regard for their specific situation comes in. Just as some said - are their medical issues? was this uncharacteristic? etc? If so, then, you need to be able to "remove" them in such a way that enables them to retain dignity and return to a leadership position once they meet standards.
- I don't think failing a standard should keep you from being a leader permanently, but it should keep you from being in a leadership position when you currently don't meet standards.
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SPC Matthew Birkinbine
I agree completely, CSM, just like a company command team might put a junior in charge of a squad over his/her senior for failing to meet army standards, I see the relief of a PSG as giving that person time to better him/herself. Once standard is again met, s/he can easily be reinstated, and no one has to know the reasoning behind that senior getting a "break" from the responsibilities of leadership, other than those who rate that NCO.
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Counseling for the first offense, duly noted on NCOER and if no improvement IAW regulation -- gone. Period. No ifs ands or buts. If that happens to me, I expect the same treatment. We do not have the luxury of a double standard.
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SSG (Join to see)
1SG Michael Blount You are right about how to handle the problem. I just wish that you were right about the double standards and same treatment. I wish that there was not and I am thankfully for leaders like your self that hold other leaders accountable but sadly there are many SNCO's that get away with that. Sad but true.
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No matter if the PSG was the best or worst u hv to remove them so not to create any doubt of picking and choosing to uphold standards. I recently hv had to initiate bars and flags on a couple of my superstars. Did I want to no but everyone is watching and u can't only punish the bad soldiers. As stated n one of the comments we know once we take the position the extra eyes that r put on us. With that being said you know what your signing up for. All those that are against remove think about the number of 1SG, CMDR or BC that we all know have failed at a standard and they were kept in place how did that effect you that is doing the right thing to enforce the standards to the lower enlisted. If you believe the lower enlisted news don't hear and find out all the wrongs that are swept under the rug your wrong. It all gets out trust me. Bottom line don't put yourself in that position if you have an ailment address it prior to pt test or even if you get injured during pt test stop and seek help it's better to not finish cause of injury vs. continuing and then using your hurt after the fact.
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CSM Mike Maynard
Great comment SFC Bethea.
You really get at the heart of the Profession of Arms and the bedrock of trust.
We wonder why Soldiers don't trust their leaders when their leaders don't hold everyone to the same standard.
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SFC (Join to see)
CSM once you compromise best believe that gets noticed and in my 19 yrs soldiers hold on to that ace and will pull it out at the most convenient time for them and then your signing sworn statements and being told you are the subject of this investigation. Just went through that today luckily for my BC CSM and my Cmdr and me as the 1SG ALWAYS play buy the book. Even when we all thought hey this a good solider do we really have to slam this soldier
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Remove him.
This is not leading by example.
In today's post-war downsizing environment, the Army is raising/re-enforcing our standards and chaptering junior leaders and Soldiers for similar failures.
Quickly removing this Platoon Sergeant from his leadership position will set a precedence for all that witness this...if you cannot lead by example, you cannot lead our Soldiers.
This is not leading by example.
In today's post-war downsizing environment, the Army is raising/re-enforcing our standards and chaptering junior leaders and Soldiers for similar failures.
Quickly removing this Platoon Sergeant from his leadership position will set a precedence for all that witness this...if you cannot lead by example, you cannot lead our Soldiers.
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LTC (Join to see)
I caution you not to let that one thing be the only discriminator. The next leader could be worse. As I know that you already do, use common sense. We all make mistakes and I would rather have a leader that makes mistakes because they are trying.
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Since when do we let those that can't meet the standard lead? If you leave someone who cannot meet the standard in a leadership position that is the starting point of hypocrisy and a deteriorating command climate. Indiscipline is bred at this juncture. Three months down the road when problems manifest, you can look back to poor leadership as the cause.
Do not do that to your Soldiers. Show them that you enforce the standards and remove those that are incapable of leading. Our Army is a profession, we need to steward positive leadership and remove the rest. There is no place for washed up, half-assed wannabes.
Do not do that to your Soldiers. Show them that you enforce the standards and remove those that are incapable of leading. Our Army is a profession, we need to steward positive leadership and remove the rest. There is no place for washed up, half-assed wannabes.
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CPT Earl George
When I was stationed at Ft Knox, my training officer was given command of another company in the battalion as a 2LT. This officer was good, but still was short on experience. I heard rumors that they had planned on "nursing " him along to make sure he did not fail. I felt it my duty to inform him of the rumored intentions to ensure he stood on his own two feet and led like he would be expected to.(regardless of rand or time in service)
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Out of curiosity, for everyone who is saying fire him, lets change the scenario. Lets say it's not the APFT or body fat. This Platoon Sergeant failed to qualify on his assigned weapon instead. Does this change your answer? Why or why not?
How about a different standard? Lets say he has not completed his required EO training, or SHARP. or any of the other MANDATORY requirements we all must complete... Is he still fired?
Why or why not?
Are only some of the standards important? Which ones?
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CSM Mike Maynard
No, PT is not the "end all, be all", it is just one component where the expectation is that you meet the standard.
In fact, if the Army didn't think the APFT/ABCP were so important, they wouldn't flag you for failing.
I think Soldiers should have the expectation that their leaders meet APFT/ABCP standards, but they also know their job and provide mentorship/training to their Soldiers.
Basically, NCOs should be the total package in meeting standards and providing the right leadership to their subordinates.
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1SG Michael Blount
PT is one of the few things an individual can control for him/herself. At day's end, the choice is simple - take care of yourself or take a hike.
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1SG Michael Blount
CSM Mike Maynard - One reason I like my unit is I do not have the luxury of slacking on PT standards. Every cycle, we get fresh, new IET Soldiers, nearly all of whom need serious physical remediation. As a result, the cadre - myself included - are forced to keep above the standard. Every year, I get older, but the Privates remain 19, 20, 21. It's certainly a built-in clallenge
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SPC (Join to see)
What could be done if corruption in the ranks is noticed, i.e. a senior NCO failing an APFT going without further actions.
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CSM, this is a good and tought questions, expecally if s/he is otherwise a squared away NCO. I would have to say, remove him/her. The Platoon Sergeant is the Standards Bearer in that Platoon, and if they can't meet the standards how can they hold others accountable. I have never been a fan of do as I say not as I do. So as good of a NCO they might be, they need another job for now to work on their short falls.
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This is not a popularity contest: either the PSG passes the second APFT or HT/WT or not. We can't have some people keeping their positions because their platoon or company has unofficially voted them the "Most likely to..." This isn't middle or high school. The high stakes we play for are real. We must not have some people meeting standards and keeping their jobs while others bust - ass and can't get promoted. It's not like the PSG didn't know the consequences of getting fat. Get fit or get out.
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If it is a first time event AND there are extenuating circumstances (injury, illness, etc.) AND the NCO is squared away in all other areas, you might be able to let a single instance pass; it will have to be looked at on a case by case basis.
Otherwise, remove them. SFC Gates, I understand your perspective but, as many here have stated, the PLT SGT is the Standard Bearer for his PLT and MUST set the example. If I were a PLT SGT again and reached the point where I could not meet the basic standards, I would go to the 1SG and CSM and ask to be moved. I have dealt with and continue to deal with severe injuries that make PT extremely challenging but if you are in a leadership position, you either overcome or step aside. I also feel there should be no shame in stepping aside if you have a legitimate reason that you cannot perform; the units I have been in over the past few years have often moved an individual into a staff position when necessary (i.e. severe combat injury, traumatic family issues, major medical problem) and then moved them back to the green tab position when the problem was resolved.
Remember, a leadership position is not about YOU, it is about your Sodiers! To quote something you are all familiar with: "My two basic responsibilities will always be uppermost in my mind, the accomplishment of the mission and the welfare of my soldiers."
If an NCO's 'issues' are preventing them from meeting this basic tenent of the creed, it is time to find another job.
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SFC (Join to see)
Most definitely, nobody is perfect. However, as a Senior NCO in that Leadership position, you should strive to be an overall Example for your Soldiers. If you can't and know that it will hurt the PLT and unit; you should have the personal courage and integrity to step down yourself before your actions or inactions force you out. Every individual and situation is different; however serving in a Leadership position is not an entitlement based on TIG or TIS; is a privilege that not too many are willing or able to do.
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