Posted on Dec 21, 2013
You Decide: NCOER - An NCO Fails APFT/ABCP During Rated Period
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You are the Rater and one of your NCOs fails (performance/effort related) either APFT/ABCP during the rated period. Within a few months (before the Thru date) they are able to meet the Army Standard.<div><br></div><div>Are they a "Needs Improvement" for failing?<br></div><div>Are they a "Needs Much Improvement" for failing?</div><div>Are they a "Success" for improving from failure to passing?</div><div>Are they a "Success" because the were in a passing status at the Thru Date?</div><div><br></div><div>There is no regulatory answer - How and where do you annotate the performance, or lack thereof on the NCOER?</div>
Army
APFT
NCOER
Standards
ABCP
Posted 12 y ago
Responses: 54
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<div>I think the PT test should be the least important issue in the rating. If we want an Army of Moron bodybuilders than use the PT test as most important factor. If you want well rounded NCOs who will become well rounded 1SGs and CSMs than look at the whole person.</div><div><br></div><div>If He is an outstanding leader who struggles with PT he should be rated as an outstanding NCO.</div><div><br></div><div>How he deals with the issue is a much bigger part than the actual test.</div>
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CSM Mike Maynard
LCpl Lefler - you are exactly correct - PT Test is only one two things evaluated in that section of our Eval and only one of five groups - so, yes, it should be taken into account when deciding the overall rating of an NCO.
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SFC Jeremy Smith
That section is more than passed APFT....if his Soldiers fail or do well it focuses on his or her leadership and how well they train them it also goes into their appearance. It gives them two or three ways to save themselves in that block.
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Success <br>o Improved by 30 points from a 176 to a 206 on their APFT during this rating period.<br>o Improved ABCP reducing BF% by 5%<br><br>Quantified improvement bullet... Leave it to the board members to determine if it represents potential for improvement in the future, or a pattern of inconsistent work ethic.<br>
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CW2 Joseph Evans
I doubt that it is a setting issue. The CSM likes to do a "Question of the day." Some of us have been tracking many of these and sometimes the discussion of one or another will cross over. Some of them that have pertained to this discussion include: https://www.rallypoint.com/questions/24423-fact-or-fiction-breaking-your-leg-on-a-record-apft
https://www.rallypoint.com/questions/23724-you-decide-leave-a-platoon-sergeant-in-position-if-they-fail-an-army-standard
Another issue is relative experience or where we get it from. Most of us assume that because this is largely a group of peers, there is an assumption of common knowledge... yeah, I know... Ass U Me...
https://www.rallypoint.com/questions/23724-you-decide-leave-a-platoon-sergeant-in-position-if-they-fail-an-army-standard
Another issue is relative experience or where we get it from. Most of us assume that because this is largely a group of peers, there is an assumption of common knowledge... yeah, I know... Ass U Me...
You're the CSM and you have a Platoon Sergeant that has just failed either the Army Physical Fitness Test or the Army Body Composition Program........Leave him in position or remove him?Defend your an...
If you have been informed by the Cdr that the APFT you are taking is for record and you pass your PU and you pass your SU and during the run, you hit a pothole and break an ankle and are unable to com...
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MSG (Join to see)
Great advice! I like how you turned a negative situation into a positive. In today's environment, a "Needs Improvement" is a surefire way to put a Soldier on the QMP or QSP list and out of a job. We are only retaining the best. With that said, as leaders we need to understand the implications of giving a Soldier a "Needs Improvement" rating and ensuring that we understand the impact. In my opinion, a Soldier who failed to meet a standard, faced the obstacle with a positive attitude, came back and overcame the challenge is a Soldier I want to keep in the ranks. And Chief's approach is spot on!
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SFC (Join to see)
I'm with Chief on this one. As Leaders we should be in the business of acting in the best interest of the Army as a whole. Just because an Leader failed and APFT once is not a reason to end his or her career. We must give the Leader an opportunity to overcome that obstacle and show that they can maintain. If after that chance is given and the result is positive, why then would we want to send a Soldier packing, Leader or otherwise? We are supposed to be in the habit of training to retain fully qualified Soldiers. Let's take for example, the possibility that a meadical condition caused the failure. Do we punish the Soldier for that? No, we follow the regulation, give the opportunity to improve on that performance and assess accordingly. If the standard is met during the rating period, then the requirement for a "success" rating is met and should be evaluated as such. If, when given the opportunity to improve, the Leader fails to do so, then we assess that the Soldier needs some or much improvement. We need to remember that yes, we are Leaders but, we are still human and things happen. We are preached at daily to make the punishment fit the crime right? So then, why would we end a career of someone who overcame a lack in performance to meet or exceed the standard? That would be rather silly in my opinion.
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CSM Mike Maynard
SFC Day - accurately differentiating between those that consistently meets standards and those that don't is the job of the rater (you get what you get based on your individual performance)
In fact, a single "Needs Some Improvement" with an overall Rater rating of "Fully Capable" (based on the situation) is not a career ender.
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Why is the NCO so borderline that we are having this discussion, You can
not lead from the middle or rear. We are talking about physical
fitness. This is a daily event that used wisely and with a little creativity
can make your unit the best, while continuing to improve on your own
leadership ability. If his/her Soldiers respect and follow him/her, is
it out of fear, is it because he is cool and doesn't enforce standards, is the
NCO weak and someone else is really leading,
or do we have a domino effect and all the Soldiers he/she is supposed to
be leading think that he/she is the standard.
We should continue to mentor through developmental counseling. I think there are a lot of variables to consider when making a decision that could possibly impact a subordinates career. The impact could not only be promotion, but also continued service. There are many ways to reflect this performance for lack of leadership and/or competence, even if he passed his most recent APFT.
not lead from the middle or rear. We are talking about physical
fitness. This is a daily event that used wisely and with a little creativity
can make your unit the best, while continuing to improve on your own
leadership ability. If his/her Soldiers respect and follow him/her, is
it out of fear, is it because he is cool and doesn't enforce standards, is the
NCO weak and someone else is really leading,
or do we have a domino effect and all the Soldiers he/she is supposed to
be leading think that he/she is the standard.
We should continue to mentor through developmental counseling. I think there are a lot of variables to consider when making a decision that could possibly impact a subordinates career. The impact could not only be promotion, but also continued service. There are many ways to reflect this performance for lack of leadership and/or competence, even if he passed his most recent APFT.
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SGT Patrick Herrera
No one s more Professional than i, im a Non commissioned officer, a leader of soldiers, as a Non commissioned officer i realize that im a member of a time honored corps, which is known as the back bone of the Army. when i went before the board for my promotion my Sargent Major asked me 1 question after i recited the NCO creed " what does the NCO creed mean to you "? i had my own answer of it and when i was done answering his question he stood up saluted me and told me that i was done he was of course the last person to ask me a question, the NCO creed to me is a out line of what a NCO should be it is embedded from the time hes a corporal or even a specialist if you will but once he becomes a team leader that is where you see everything if the team leader is not on point his team is not on point then the squad leader job just got hard, the old motto is your only as tough as your weakest link, if you cant show your team you can do PT and pass the PT test what are you telling them? its the team leader job to say hey SSg im going to take my guys and do PT and show your team earn there respect show them your a leader and you can do PT and be A LEADER OF SOLDIERS, like one great NCO told me when he was mentoring me you never half ass lead your soldiers if you do then you will fully put them 6 ft under
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SSG Robert Burns
Man I hope no one ever gets a cramp or pulls a muscle on their APFT. You're done son.
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<p>This question was raised on a HRC website a few years back and the remark was yes they can receive a success. Like CSM Maynard said - no regulator answer. I have a few opinions below.</p><p><br></p><p>Overall I agree they knew the standard and failed to meet it.</p><p><br></p><p>I think the total Soldier concept matters. What if he was over for just one month but had a 285 APFT score? I had a new NCO show up to my unit and I told the PSG to tape him based on his appearance. He failed and was over but lost 20 lbs in 30 days and was removed from the program. What I did not that he was a competitive body builder in the bulk phase. I know he is the exception but I am brining it up for just that point. I also told him to keep within standards at all times regardless he is still an NCO.</p><p><br></p><p>This brings to mind a second point: </p><p>If we hold the NCO responsible for his APFT/AWCP then why do very few hold them responsible for their Soldiers APFT/ABCP? I consistently see remarks in reference to increasing APFT scores in the section or having a program that removed or reduced APFT/ABCO Soldiers from the program. If they were in charge when they did well were they not also in charge when they failed?</p><p><br></p><p><br></p><p><br></p><p><br></p><p><br></p><p><br></p>
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CSM Stuart C. O'Black
Here is a follow up - I made a previous comment but here is a final one. What if the NCO had a 261 APFT? Well exceeds the 180 required by Army standards but one of his events was 61 while the others were 100? Is that a needs improvement for being in the 60 percent range? Most would say a 261 is a good score while I would say he could possibly be a need improvement - interesting.
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CSM Mike Maynard
I agree CSM O'B (good to see you on here btw, always enjoyed your comments and mentorship on NCONet) - we must start making NCOs responsible for the good and bad, not only the good.
We have to remember that the purpose of the NCOER is counseling in order to improve performance.
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1SG Edward Tushar
I believe in holding NCOs to the standard whether it is good or bad. I believed my successes were the results of my Solders and my failures were my own. However, the NCOER system was inflated when I was retiring in 2009. I started out in the Army as a PAC clerk in a battery typing up the old "125" NCOERs that were inflated until replaced by the new NCOER. I think the problem is too much is tied to the NCOER in the promotion system at the senior level. When a Rater tries to be realistic and gives someone a true Success they can hurt that NCO in the promotion system by a creative typer who gives another NCO an Excellent.
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CSM Stuart C. O'Black
Thanks CSM Maynard - Mike,
I agree very much with your comment, unfortunately most NCOs only see their counseling or potential comments when their NCOER is due not during the rating period. But that again is a another topic.
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I am noticing that people keep saying that a guy with a 300 PT that sucks at being an NCO would have a better NCOER than the Soldier that failed one PT test but is the best at every other thing the Army asks of them. I think that is the wrong way to look at it. Sure the 300 PT stud may get an excellence bullet for that but if he sucks at all other things he should get needs improvements in those areas. Being a PT stud should not mean an automatic 1/1. But a pt failure in my mind should mean an automatic needs improvement cause you cant meet the standard.
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CSM Mike Maynard
Annnnnd roger. You are exactly right. For this situation, we are only honed in on one rater's area - there would be too many variables to relate one area to the overall rater's rating or the senior raters ratings.
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SSG (Join to see)
A soldier can have 4 excellences and a need improvement. That is why there is 5 separate sections to the NCOER. Also why there is a rater portion and senior rater portion
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I would have to say needs improvement. Sure the NCO "finally" passed the Army requirements before the rating period ended. That doesn't change the fact that during the rating period they failed. An NCOER is intended to cover the entire rating period. At some point in 12 months they failed to be a physically fit NCO. Some people would say they did improve; I would say the needs improvement would imply next rating period go the whole rating period without failing the standard. It is not about the standard you are meeting on the thru day of your NCOER; it is the standard you uphold the entire rating period.
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SFC (Join to see)
Yes!!!!! Will it suck yes!!! Your on watch every time as a leader you better do the right thing cause that one time you try to burn the substandard person which you think yeah they just gonna take it like a champ....nope watch they bring up in front of the wrong people how you let sgt so&so off the hook. Now focus turns from substandard NCO to you the leader who has favorites.... Your number ones have to know there not untouchable also....keep them on the str8 and narrow so they don't get the big head
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1SG (Join to see)
SSG Graves,
My answer is still needs improvement. I see it this way
always scores above a 250 on PT test most recent a 300 Excellence
always scores above 180 cause its the standard but never excels and never gets a "high score" Success
fails a PT test during the rating period regardless of final APFT score needs improvement.
It doesn't matter if you finally get a passing score how can I say you are a success when you fail to meet the standard. I am not saying you have to score a 300 every PT test. score a 180 every single time you are a success because you meet the standard. Fail once and you are a needs improvement because you cant meet the standard. Now your example of 300, 259, 300 is one that people keep getting caught up with on here. If the NCO got a 259 for any other reason than an act out of their control; hit by a car, fell in a pot hole, got tripped by another runner. Than the answer is still you failed. You fail a standard you need to improve period.
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MAJ Bryan Zeski
I disagree with SSG Schmidt here... if you fail a PT test, that should not be an automatic needs improvement on an NCOER - especially if on subsequent tests the NCO passes or does excellent. Sometimes crap happens and bad APFT scores happen - to hold an entire rating period NCOER hostage over one mistake doesn't meet the common sense test.
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CSM Mike Maynard
MAJ Zeski, I see your point as far as one test during an entire rating period possibly overshadowing the "average" performance.
So, let's say that someone takes one APFT every month for 12 months during their rating period and scores 90/90/90 on the first 11 and on the last one before the rating period ends, fails.
That failing test is the one that will be reflected on the NCOER. Is it fair that they were excellent for 11/12 tests during the rating period but get rated as a fail?
Timing of when a failure occurs during the rating period shouldn't make a difference as to how someone gets rated. A fail is a fail and should be documented in such a way that differentiates them from someone who consistently meets/exceeds the standard for the entire rating period.
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CSM, Maybe I look at it a little differently then the others. I would probably make an annotation of needs some improvement. My reasoning is that Soldiers should not be training for an APFT they should always have at a minimum a 180 in their pocket. As a 1SG I encountered a similar situation with regards to a SFC who was on the Over Weight program at the beginning of the rating period but came off prior 5 days before the end of the rating period. As his Rater, I rated him as needs some improvement and the bullet comment explained the rating as well as all his counselings. When reviewed by the CSM and the BN CDR they fully supported my rating and reasoning.
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CSM Mike Maynard
MSG Diet, I agree with you. It only seems fair to annotate in such a way that ensures someone who consistently meets/exceeds standards gets a better rating in that area than someone who doesn't.
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<span style="color: rgb(77, 77, 77); font-size: 12px;">So if anyone has ever been late to work once during the entire rating period they get a needs improvement under responsibility and accountability? Seems like the same logic to me.</span>
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MAJ (Join to see)
I'm interested to see the response to this. Let's see if we pick and chose which standards should be reflected in the NCOER. I agree with you. If this is the standard for Needs Improvements, then 90% of the evals should have NI under Accountability just like you stated for being late to work one time and failing to meet the standard.
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It all depends on what was discussed on the NCOER support form. There are too many factors to consider. Did he fail the APFT because he sprained his ankle on the run, was feeling sick that day? Whatever. Later he corrected his deficiency and was successful.
What if he maxed his APFT earlier in the rating period but later scored a 260. Is this only a success because he didn't max it every time? I think it depends on what you established as a rater before hand. If you say you will receive and excellence if you max your APFT then he did that.
As far as the board is concerned Im not sure it makes a difference. So you have one soldier who scored 185 throughout the entire rating period and you have another who scored a 170 then 240 and 270. Are you saying that soldier needs a needs improvement? I think to the contrary he has shown improvement.
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CSM Mike Maynard
SSG Burns, I agree wholeheartedly that it does truly depend on what the initial counseling states as we should be providing specific examples/goals on what Success/Excellence are.
The problem becomes when each rater gets to define their version of Success vs Excellence vs Needs Improvement.
How is a board panel to compare NCOs if the standards of ratings are different?
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SSG Robert Burns
I agree CSM. But I think this will always be the case. Some units see 270 and above as excellence, while others demand at least a 300. Those 300 units see it a 270 as a success. So you have two NCOs, one who scores 270 and one who scores 320 but they are both rated as excellent.
The bad thing is that boards don't see the support form as past of the record. I think that the NCOER support form should be part of the NCOER that is filed. Maybe a new topic worth discussing.
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CSM,
My personnel opinion CSM, I would look at the total soldier concept. Did said NCO show remorse and take responsibility for failing or did the NCO place blame on other circumstances. How much effort did they put into passing their next AFPT/ABCP?
Now to my answer if the NCO took responsibility and went the extra mile to pass the next APFT/ABCP I would make them a Success.
If they went the other route I would go with Needs Some Improvement.
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CSM Mike Maynard
1SG - I guess it just all depends on what type of climate/culture that you want to have in your organization.
Now, just to ask a question that takes into account your principle.
An NCO fails an APFT and is "remorseful" and "takes responsibility", 60 days later they pass the APFT - based on your answer, they would earn a "Success".
Now, what if NCO "A"'s has a rating period that ends in between the failure and the re-test but NCO "B"'s rating period ends after the re-test.
So, one NCO is a current failure on his thru date and the other NCO isn't - do you give them both "Success"? Because each one failed and passed at the 60-day mark - the only difference is the timing of the thru date?
Do you see how timing could either cause you to rate someone differently who performed exactly the same? We have to be careful because perception could be that 1) someone that always passes (250) gets a "Success", 2) someone who fails and passes gets a "Success" and 3) someone who is a current failure gets a "Success".
Sure doesn't seem fair to the NCO who always meets the standard - what is his motivation to exceed expectations when they will get the same rating as someone who doesn't.
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1SG (Join to see)
CSM Maynard,
You have a great point. But in my unit Integrity is key to every day life. So is NCO "A" rating period was up and he/she didn't pass they would receive a Need Some Improvement. I hate units where NCOs worry more about stats then truth! I am with you 100% about fairness from the others who are doing the right thing all the time.
Thanks for perception of my answer and you great advice as well.
V/R
1SG Haro
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