Posted on Dec 21, 2013
You Decide: NCOER - An NCO Fails APFT/ABCP During Rated Period
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You are the Rater and one of your NCOs fails (performance/effort related) either APFT/ABCP during the rated period. Within a few months (before the Thru date) they are able to meet the Army Standard.<div><br></div><div>Are they a "Needs Improvement" for failing?<br></div><div>Are they a "Needs Much Improvement" for failing?</div><div>Are they a "Success" for improving from failure to passing?</div><div>Are they a "Success" because the were in a passing status at the Thru Date?</div><div><br></div><div>There is no regulatory answer - How and where do you annotate the performance, or lack thereof on the NCOER?</div>
Army
APFT
NCOER
Standards
ABCP
Posted 12 y ago
Responses: 54
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It has to be ambiguous. At the rater and senior rater level, you must be able to consider the total Soldier. Was the failure an abnormality for the NCO? Is his / her performance normally good. What about the performance of subordinates? You can't forget that as an NCO the job is also about training. If he failed one test, while having a respectably high organizational average, then a success may be the best answer.
This is why raters and senior raters must take our system more seriously that we seem to.
This is why raters and senior raters must take our system more seriously that we seem to.
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CSM Mike Maynard
Sir, if all expect from an NCO is for them to be normally good, but not necessarily meeting the standard all the time, then we have given you the wrong impression of what you should expect from an NCO.
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SFC Michael Welker
Seems like we tend to forget that there is aming the best and sucess. There is separation for a reason. Over achieving and consistently exceeding the standards are among the best. the majority ofbtje NCOs are in the middle for either a high meets the standarsa or low meets the standards. Every individual at all ranks and positions have stubling blocks and mistakes. this is not supposed to be hell fire and brimstone. CRUCIFY THEM!! Not really. Just like UCMJ action, the needs improvement tool should now be used as a last resort after you have exhausted all of your ability to make a difference. The days of recovering from a needs improvement are pretty much gone. Are the rest of your NCOs truly that stellar that you can burn one just for PT? I think not. Give it true thought and look at the long run. Is this or can this NCO be an assest to unit. Is the NCO dead weight or just having issues with PT. If the NCO is developing and mentoring good Soldiers than his or her immediate supervisor needs to partake in some personal investment. Ownership. We are still responsible for their professional and personal development even if they are NCOs. The Rank is not like airborne wings and automatically makes you bullet proof and an expert at everything. That is why we are not completely individuals but a member of a Corp and a team/ family. This is the only way we overcome our adversaries.
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CSM Mike Maynard
SFC Welker - a "Needs Improvement" is not unrecoverable, but it will a slow a person down a little and will clearly make a distinction between an NCO that feels it's important to meet the standard all the time vs one who does not.
You state "expert at everything", no, that is not the expectation. Just meet the standard is the expectation, and like you said, Among the Best is reserved for those that are well rounded.
To segue from this - promotion panels are now allowed to see "in grade misconduct" - your restricted file is no longer restricted. So, would you be against any UCMJ since that is going to negatively affect someones promotion potential?
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CPT Daniel Walk, M.B.A.
CSM Maynard,
I may not have written my statement very well. Instead of "normally good", I probably should have said "Does the NCO have a history of good performance. The OP cited a specific instance. I might "judge" my junior enlisted and SGTs on a single instance, but I would never judge my SNCOs that way. There's too much history and too much available information to place that burden on the rater or senior rater. The decision must be made on the total concept of the NCO and the judgement of his potential in the future.
I may not have written my statement very well. Instead of "normally good", I probably should have said "Does the NCO have a history of good performance. The OP cited a specific instance. I might "judge" my junior enlisted and SGTs on a single instance, but I would never judge my SNCOs that way. There's too much history and too much available information to place that burden on the rater or senior rater. The decision must be made on the total concept of the NCO and the judgement of his potential in the future.
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I speak from ignorance since I have never been involved in the Army rating process; but I feel there are parallels with the Air Force rating method. The differences in opinion that I am reading here is exactly why I always hated the methods I had to use. I require standards to be met 24/7; a failure to meet standards is not acceptable at any time. We will not be the ones to choose when the crisis hits; allowing substandard performance is a risk. I will not allow risk which I can control; all said I make my expectations known immediately upon arrival and my expectations start on the day I give them. I could, at best, give a "needs improvement" level of rating.
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Suspended Profile
The problem with this question is there is a lot of information missing. Are they a Soldier than consistency fails? Did they go on 30 days of leave and come back and fail? If it was a normal PT test, first time fail I would say Needs improvement. If they fail all the time, Needs much Improvement. If they are generally a good NCO, good at PT but just had an off day, lots of leave, got back from deployment, etc. Success. I do think everyone should get one for free.
CSM Mike Maynard
Be careful with the "one for free" mentality - in that environment there is no standard. If the expectation to always meet a certain level/proficiency isn't there, then there is no standard.
And if "one for free" mentality is justified, then what else can we get a buy on once? Disrespect? Not Counseling Soldiers? Not taking care of Soldiers pay problems? Assault? Harassment?
Why would any of those be any different than it not being necessary to pass an APFT/ABCP?
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CSM Mike Maynard
SGT B, how do you ensure fairness across the board if you are using such subjective criteria as "prior performance and current situation"?
How would you cover that in an initial counseling - SGT Warrior, you will still be rated a Success if you fail an APFT/ABCP once during the rating period as long as you have passed your last two? Just seems that there is no standard if we don't uphold a standard and if there are no repercussions for not meeting the standard.
If you don't define these things up front, then it's hard to apply it equally/fairly across the board and some will think that their situation merits more compassion than someone else's.
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Suspended Profile
I find it hard to believe none of you have ever gave someone a blind eye at some point in your career. Everyone makes mistakes sometime in the career. The idea is if they make that mistake, they realize the impact it could have and that it was wrong they won't ever repeat that.
I see your point with the Freeby that gave someone a sequence number over someone else. If I had complete information and know they wouldn't ever make that mistake again in the career. I'd be fine with them being selected over me. That is the point of the freeby, a time to learn. Sexual Harassment, Assault, DUI etc, your freeby is standing in formation on Friday getting your brief. Not in the same category.
SFC (Join to see)
Once you compromise prescribed standards the first time...it will become easier to keep compromising. As a NCO you are expected to set the example and enforce standards at all times 24/7 at all times.
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Although this is not covered in the regs, the Army does cover this in another way. The simple answer is, it is a success. I use NCOESs as my go to on this one, NCOs who fail the initial may not be eligible for “Commandants List” but they still get a 1059 saying they met course standards. While we should never fail a PT test, I don’t believe in berating someone for having an off day. Having said this there is nothing wrong with counseling an NCO on a 4856 and if they guy is a consistently poor performer in physical fitness giving a needs improvement even if he passed because the NCOER should reflect your performance over the entire rating period and not just one day where you happened to either pass or fail.
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MSG (Join to see)
Simply not true, I just reciently had a APFT failure at ALC who was able to take a secont test.
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MSG (Join to see)
Also, I am curious CSM. I just today took an APFT, reciently quit smoking cigarettes and although didnt fail lost about a min off my run. Say a consistant 80point per event Soldier has a bad day and feels sick but decides to take the APFT, fails an event, comes back the next day or a week later and passes. You give this NCO a NI?
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CSM Mike Maynard
MSG Hendrickson - I didn't state fail the "first" APFT, I stated fail the APFT. Those who fail to pass the APFT for the school are sent home.
As to your other comment on "having a bad day" - I definitely understand and am sympathetic to that.
But here is the rabbit-hole you are going down. Ok, so a consistently 80/80/80 has a bad day, you rate them a Success. What is magical about the 80/80/80? What if I'm a 78/78/78 and have a bad day? Success? What about 70/70/70 and have a bad day? Success?
You see the path you start down when we as leaders start using subjective standards on how we grant dispensation. We end up creating a perception of unfairness and double-standards.
Or you say everyone gets a Mulligan? Well, now you've created a climate where the expectation is that you don't always have to meet the standard.
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MSG (Join to see)
CSM my point was that a NCOES will give a meets the standard for the course even if they fail the first APFT and yet pass the second. Success to the NCOES tells me if the Soldier passes the APFT before the rating period is over its a success on the NCOER as well. As for the 80 bench mark that was the one you were using as an example, I only reused it to see what you felt about the situation and asked because you seem to want to protect them based on your previous posts.
As for the rabbit hole example you provided.... As long as I am consistently providing regular counseling on performance to include physical fitness I am ok with making judgement calls because I have a record good or bad backing it up. A problem would only exist if I were to take different courses of action on 2 poor or exceptional performers.
We as NCOs are given the tools to use sound judgement and if we use them accordingly the chain of command and our conscience will support those decisions when we make them
As for the rabbit hole example you provided.... As long as I am consistently providing regular counseling on performance to include physical fitness I am ok with making judgement calls because I have a record good or bad backing it up. A problem would only exist if I were to take different courses of action on 2 poor or exceptional performers.
We as NCOs are given the tools to use sound judgement and if we use them accordingly the chain of command and our conscience will support those decisions when we make them
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