Posted on Dec 10, 2014
You're either "outstanding or outprocessing."
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If you are in the service long enough, eventually you hear something along these lines.
What does the collective wisdom of RP say?
Does everyone have to be shooting for E9/GO?
Does [insert branch here] need people who are just good at their job and not the education/volunteer person?
Does the drawdown effect your view point?
What does the collective wisdom of RP say?
Does everyone have to be shooting for E9/GO?
Does [insert branch here] need people who are just good at their job and not the education/volunteer person?
Does the drawdown effect your view point?
Personnel
Retention
Promotions
Posted 11 y ago
Responses: 7
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TSgt Joshua Copeland, not everybody needs to be outstanding, but I think the point is that everyone should be striving to do their best - every day - not resting on their laurels, kicking back, thinking they have "made it." Those are the folks who give any organization a bad name.
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CMSgt James Nolan
TSgt Joshua Copeland and CW5 (Join to see) I agree with the Chief on this. Everyone is different. If you come in and give 100% and everyone can see that you are, there is value. Now, does that mean that you will advance up the chain? Maybe, maybe not. Just because you put the effort in, does not make you awesome. However, you have to put the effort in. If you just sit idle, you are simply taking up space.
Regarding volunteering and "all the other stuff". We as leaders have to weigh all that into consideration when making decisions that impact our units (i.e. positions and promotions). I do not think, that just as an example, you go out and pick up trash, you are a better person than anyone else. However, if you are coming in and taking on more responsibilities and bettering yourself through your works, within the unit, that should be considered.
I think that sometimes, we weight out too much value on "volunteerism" and some other things. Some folks like to go home and spend time with family and friends, or go to school, or fix a jeep. Some folks like to be involved in every activity. We have to appreciate that. We ask an awful lot of our troops. When we demand volunteerism, it becomes false motivation and mandatory fun....
Regarding volunteering and "all the other stuff". We as leaders have to weigh all that into consideration when making decisions that impact our units (i.e. positions and promotions). I do not think, that just as an example, you go out and pick up trash, you are a better person than anyone else. However, if you are coming in and taking on more responsibilities and bettering yourself through your works, within the unit, that should be considered.
I think that sometimes, we weight out too much value on "volunteerism" and some other things. Some folks like to go home and spend time with family and friends, or go to school, or fix a jeep. Some folks like to be involved in every activity. We have to appreciate that. We ask an awful lot of our troops. When we demand volunteerism, it becomes false motivation and mandatory fun....
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TSgt Joshua Copeland
CMSgt James Nolan, we already demand it based on our own regulations. AFI 36-2618 clearly states:
3.1.8. Continue professional development through on- and off-duty education. Join professional organizations (for example, base advisory and enlisted councils) and participate in organization and community events through volunteerism.
4.1.8. Continue professional development through on- and off-duty education. Join professional organizations (for example, base advisory and enlisted councils) and participate in organization and community events through volunteerism.
The same goes for the CCAF:
4.1.16. Secure and promote PME and professional enhancement courses for themselves and subordinates to develop and cultivate leadership skills and military professionalism. NCOs should enroll in and complete the CCAF degree, if not already earned, and encourage completion by subordinates. They should also continue development for themselves and subordinates through available professional enhancement courses, on- and off-duty education, leadership lectures and seminars, and the Chief of Staff of the Air Force reading program.
5.1.7. Secure and promote PME and professional enhancement courses for themselves and subordinates to develop and cultivate leadership skills and military professionalism. SNCOs should complete their CCAF degree, if not already earned, and continue development for self and subordinates through available on- and off-duty education, leadership lectures and seminars, and the Chief of Staff of the Air Force reading program.
http://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a1/publication/afi36-2618/afi36-2618.pdf
3.1.8. Continue professional development through on- and off-duty education. Join professional organizations (for example, base advisory and enlisted councils) and participate in organization and community events through volunteerism.
4.1.8. Continue professional development through on- and off-duty education. Join professional organizations (for example, base advisory and enlisted councils) and participate in organization and community events through volunteerism.
The same goes for the CCAF:
4.1.16. Secure and promote PME and professional enhancement courses for themselves and subordinates to develop and cultivate leadership skills and military professionalism. NCOs should enroll in and complete the CCAF degree, if not already earned, and encourage completion by subordinates. They should also continue development for themselves and subordinates through available professional enhancement courses, on- and off-duty education, leadership lectures and seminars, and the Chief of Staff of the Air Force reading program.
5.1.7. Secure and promote PME and professional enhancement courses for themselves and subordinates to develop and cultivate leadership skills and military professionalism. SNCOs should complete their CCAF degree, if not already earned, and continue development for self and subordinates through available on- and off-duty education, leadership lectures and seminars, and the Chief of Staff of the Air Force reading program.
http://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a1/publication/afi36-2618/afi36-2618.pdf
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CMSgt James Nolan
TSgt Joshua Copeland Thank you for pointing out the AFI, I was echoing what you and the CW5 Montgomery had said, and adding to it. I do feel that sometimes too much weight is given when making considerations. Fully aware of what the AFI states, was not attempting to start an argument on the topic.
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TSgt Joshua Copeland
CMSgt James Nolan , I completely agree. In my 16 years, qtrly and annual awards have really been decided by self improvement and community involvement.
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MSgt Copeland, I believe in our core values. Integrity, Service before Self and Excellence in all we do. With that being said, leaders should be holding their personnel to the standard. Part of making the grade of E-9 is having higher education, community involvement and volunteer service. Not everyone in our Military has that drive and motivation to obtain this well rounded and polished mindset and that is the reason why only 1% makes it to E-9. It is our responsibility as leaders to paint a clear and precise picture on what the future of our military has in store for us. We have the ability to read the writing on the wall so to speak. Having that forthought helps prepare our folks for the trying times to ahead and possibly promotions. In addition, higher education, community involvement and volunteerism helps to build resumes for smooth transitions into the civilian world if they are inclined to do so. I just got the results of my R-EDP back and I am in the top 3% of all MSgt's in my career field. I received very good advice from senior leaders that are vectoring my career. I just picked up a CMSgt position and will be moving in the next two months.
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SMSgt (Join to see)
Thanks Shirt! This opportunity came as a surprise to me to say the least. I was told that I was in the top 5 MSgt's in my career field by my Major Command. I wasn't trying to move ahead of the personnel above me, but I am very humble to have this opportunity to progress. I will live up to the expectations off CMSgt and put my people first! There is no E-10, therefore I have nothing to prove to anyone.
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I do not thing everyone needs to be shooting for E9/GO, but hopefully they have goals. I have airman right now who have joined the military to help them get to their next goal or some have joined because they don't what their next step is, hopefully we will give them the experience they need/want to make those next decisions.
I definitely thing the AF needs people who are really good at there job, I work with a lot of folks like that and they usually make E-7 but refuse to accomplish the minimum requirements to go pass that. It doesn't mean that they are a sucky SNCO or that they are bad at their job, it just means they are happy being a good (whatever) and don't need or want to be pulled out their job to do administrative work.
No the drawdown didn't have any influence on my point of view. I've always felt this way.
I definitely thing the AF needs people who are really good at there job, I work with a lot of folks like that and they usually make E-7 but refuse to accomplish the minimum requirements to go pass that. It doesn't mean that they are a sucky SNCO or that they are bad at their job, it just means they are happy being a good (whatever) and don't need or want to be pulled out their job to do administrative work.
No the drawdown didn't have any influence on my point of view. I've always felt this way.
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TSgt Joshua Copeland
SMSgt Judy Hickman, with the new EPR's and E8/E9 WAPS process, if you don't do the minimum requirements, you don't even test now.
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SMSgt Judy Hickman
I understand what you are saying, but the military will always need those people who just want to do the job and ignore the BS behind promotions. For too long the Air Force has focused on promoting those that do a great job at everything but their job. I am really happy the evaluation system is changing and hopefully we will truly focus on performance in the work place and not those great party planners. There are some who don't need the carrot of promotion to be successful, they are successful because they work hard at their job and they take care of their people. I believe the mentality of "oh I'll just wait to do that later" is changing quickly as I have 11 year SSgts very concerned about course 15, since they are already behind the power curve according to the new timelines laid out.
In my career field we are hurting in SSgt and TSgts now, but over manned in MSgts, some of these changes will be good and it will thin out the herd of MSgts just sticking around... just like the High Year Tenure changes did a few years ago.
In my career field we are hurting in SSgt and TSgts now, but over manned in MSgts, some of these changes will be good and it will thin out the herd of MSgts just sticking around... just like the High Year Tenure changes did a few years ago.
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SMSgt Judy Hickman
MSgt Joshua Copeland, no reason to waste the money to allow them the test when they aren't willing to the bare minimums. I 100% agree with that change.
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TSgt Joshua Copeland
SMSgt Judy Hickman, I completely agree. The checkboxes are pretty clear cut and well known. Heck even the promotion board checkboxes are pretty well known.
side note: use the @ symbol to link names.
side note: use the @ symbol to link names.
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TSgt Joshua Copeland I never heard that phrase before, but me personally I am always striving to do my best, and to reach that E9 pay grade. Will I make it? who knows, but at least I'll know that I tried.
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TSgt Joshua Copeland
SFC (Join to see), I first heard it as a young Navy/Marine Brat and hear it in the AF realm at least once a year normally from a Chief or Shirt.
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Outmaneuvering, though. If a soldier writes "checkmate" on a 4856, please post a photo. :) That's meme material.
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TSgt Joshua Copeland
SGT (Join to see), had to bust out my Google-fu for that form. That would be funny. Would not go over well...but funny.
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The drawdown is just a normal process of escalation for war and deescalation for post war.
When you work in a bureaucratic environment such as federal civil service or the military, the term "outstanding" has little merit.
Ultimately, the military is a career for many of us, and, as such, we should pursue those assignments that shape who we want to become, or what we believe.
Success should be defined by the individual, not necessarily by the institution.
When you work in a bureaucratic environment such as federal civil service or the military, the term "outstanding" has little merit.
Ultimately, the military is a career for many of us, and, as such, we should pursue those assignments that shape who we want to become, or what we believe.
Success should be defined by the individual, not necessarily by the institution.
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TSgt Joshua Copeland
MAJ (Join to see), I agree that success SHOULD be defined by the individual, but often times within the military construct, success is defined by the institution, superiors and "box checking."
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That is the nature of the beast. At the end of the day we are here to defend our nation. The nation deserves the brightest and the best. One day I will not be that. On that day I will retire and pass the torch. The Army is not here for us. The military in general does offer a lot of benefits but they are to reward you for your service.
In some cases this is hard to understand. How can you tell a soldier that he is injured will be medically discharged. He may fill that he can do the job but in all honestly he will not be 100%. And that is what the military asks for.
In the promotion aspect you should aspire to serve the military the best you can. Why else would you be serving. The higher you promote the better you can serve the Army. Just think if Patton thought to himself "I just want to be a Company Commander and that is it." He would have cheated the Nation one of the best generals in military history. The more you have to offer the more you should give.
If you are just doing the bare minimum then that is what you are offering the military. If someone else is offering their all and that is able to produce a better result what would you expect from the military. It is a organisation that is self sustaining. It needs to shed those that don't offer to better it. The issue is that there is really no one out there that is bad. Just not the best. It makes it a hard decision to lose them but you can't keep everyone.
In some cases this is hard to understand. How can you tell a soldier that he is injured will be medically discharged. He may fill that he can do the job but in all honestly he will not be 100%. And that is what the military asks for.
In the promotion aspect you should aspire to serve the military the best you can. Why else would you be serving. The higher you promote the better you can serve the Army. Just think if Patton thought to himself "I just want to be a Company Commander and that is it." He would have cheated the Nation one of the best generals in military history. The more you have to offer the more you should give.
If you are just doing the bare minimum then that is what you are offering the military. If someone else is offering their all and that is able to produce a better result what would you expect from the military. It is a organisation that is self sustaining. It needs to shed those that don't offer to better it. The issue is that there is really no one out there that is bad. Just not the best. It makes it a hard decision to lose them but you can't keep everyone.
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CPT (Join to see)
COL Vincent Stoneking You make a great point. I didn't think about it that way. If someone just wants to stay in a trade they may be forced to promote or be pushed out. I am always thinking of the officer side of life. I do recall some joe never wanted the responsibility of leadership. They just wanted to be joe and shoot bad guys. Thanks for the great commentary.
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CMSgt James Nolan
TSgt Joshua Copeland That is my point in regards to the previous post, although I admit I was nowhere near as eloquent. "someone has to be doing the work" When associated with active duty, I saw so many who only wanted to be out doing everything but the work. It became an exercise in frustration trying to come up with a viable workaround so that "boxes could be checked", Commanders could be happy and mission could be accomplished. I appreciate the fact that there are volunteer "goals", heck, even priorities, and bragging rights between units about this project and that project. I tend to swing back more toward the mission side of it.
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TSgt Joshua Copeland
Absolutely CMSgt James Nolan, I agree with the idea, but I don't think big Air Force does. With the recentish changes in HYT dropping SrA to 8, SSgt to 15 and TSgt to 20.
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CMSgt James Nolan
And that is interesting, was unaware of the HYT. When I was USMC, long time ago, you had to make E6 in 12 or bye bye, not sure if that is still the same. There has been no mention of HYT in the Guard (let me clarify-I have not heard it mentioned). It is also, much harder to make rank in the Guard because you only compete inside a unit. That does pose an interesting change form me to consider.....
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