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Today, I may make some people mad. But what I want to address is vitally important.
I have been a drill instructor in a prison boot camp (an adult penitentiary down South) for over six years now. We train and rehabilitate non-violent offenders using a 105-day military style boot camp. Before that, I served for 21 years in the regular Army and worked a gig for Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD) anti-terrorism training organization for the Department of Homeland Security (DHS).
During my military career, I served two tours in South Korea (one of which was retro-actively considered a combat tour because of the unanticipated battle on 23 November 1984), one tour in Germany, two Middle East combat tours, and a total of five and half years as a paratrooper and jumpmaster. I say all this not to spout out my resume, but so that I can assure you that I am absolutely qualified to make the statements I am about to make.
In the last six and a half years since I took on this job, I have been studying to become a drill instructor. Where did I go for my research? The Marine Corps.
I have always been fascinated by the Marines. In fact, I have served alongside them on several occasions. I began reading articles, watching hours and hours of video, and speaking with many Marines (drill instructors and non-drill instructors alike).
Over time, I have become a bit of a self-proclaimed, self-educated expert on Marine training: what they do, how they do it, why they do it, when they do it, etc. In the process of studying their training, I have come to several conclusions. I have also come to several conclusions about the Army, some not so good – some are downright scary.
Here are the things I have learned through my extensive research:
1. The Army runs a softer, “human dignity based” reception and receiving when the recruits arrive. The reception is so weak that it sets a very bad tone for the remainder of not just their training, but for their whole career in the Army. Recruits show up to a firm welcome by the drill sergeants and staff, but it’s not the controlled mayhem of a Marine Corps Recruit Depot (MCRD). In fact, it seems to comfort and reassure soldiers as if to say “calm down and relax, it’s going to be all right.” Now that is all right if that is a message from your mother, but it’s not okay when we are trying to build the next generations of Spartans.
Marine receiving, on the other hand, is a “shock theater” from the minute they get off the bus through their graduation. The mayhem starts when their feet hit the “deck” and it never ever lets up. The discipline and stress is through the roof! The Army reception staff occasionally get perplexed as if to say “silly Private, get over here...shucks, what are you doing?”
In an MCRD, the recruit would be screamed at: ”GET OVER HERE! TOO SLOW, GO BACK! GET OVER HERE! STOP EYEBALLING ME! GET YOUR HEELS TOGETHER! Hey there was something you were supposed to say when told to do something, WHAT WAS IT? RESPOND!…AYE AYE SIR! RESPOND!”
See the difference? Here’s what I always say: weak pick up, weak recruits, strong pick up, strong recruits. That means if you “go in punching,” so to speak, the recruits know you mean business, you are not playing, and you are tougher than they are. You want them to be nearly peeing their pants from fear and stress.
The Army feels we need to treat people with dignity and respect and that people will shut down if screamed at too much. If that were true, the Marines have been doing it wrong since about 1952. That’s around the time that the Smokey bear hat and the structured chaos of boot camp kicked into gear. Don’t get me wrong: the Marines always wrote the book on discipline, but during the 1950’s the MCRDs really stepped up their game.
2. The tone the Army sets in basic training is wrong. The Army trains; the Marines indoctrinate. Do you see the difference? The Marines initiate the recruit into a culture, the Army trains them in tasks. Sure, the Army has core values that are really good. The values make sense and they are motivating, but the Marines ingrain it deeper into a youngster’s soul.
While the Army does change the person’s life, it does not instill the intrinsic values in the same way that the Marines do. Unless you are in an elite Army unit like Infantry, Airborne, Rangers, Special Forces, or Delta, you just don’t have the warrior ethos that the Army claims it builds. If you are a motivated gung-ho individual and you are not in an elite unit, the Army (or at least fellow soldiers) treat you like an oddball. How do I know this? I have spent a total of about 30 years around it, and I have been in Airborne, Infantry, and attached to Special Ops units, as well as regular units. In the Marines, gung-ho motivation is business as usual. You stand out if you aren’t highly motivated.
3. The Marines base their training on indoctrinating the individual into the core values of the Marines. Their training relies heavily on close order drill. They believe that drill instills a sense of teamwork and attention to detail that no other activity can. Drill teaches an individual that there are immediate consequences for an individual’s actions on their group. In other words, when one guy messes up a movement, it doesn’t go unnoticed. That soldier makes his squad look bad, that squad affects the platoon, and so on. Have you ever seen one guy in a formation either doing something late or doing the wrong movement? It sticks out like dog balls!
Now take this concept - that my actions affect the group as a whole - and apply it to war. If I move and am seen by the enemy, I may not just get myself killed, but my whole squad, platoon, company, etc. When you train with that kind of attention to detail, you are disciplined.
The Army conducts impeccable training in close order drill. In fact, the largest source of failure for students at the drill sergeant school is testing of the drill modules. So why does the Army not march as well as the Marines and why is marching not as high a priority in the Army?
4. The Army introduces combat skills earlier than the Marines do. The Army trains more combat tasks in its basic training that the Marines. Now while this may seem like a good idea, it’s really not. Teaching combat tasks before a person is fully indoctrinated in the love of corps and country is a very bad idea. It's like letting a kid who just learned how to drive enter a NASCAR race. The kid may have great skills, coordination, and reflexes, but the reality is that they have only been driving less than a year.
The Marines realize that indoctrination in the love of God, Country, and Corps has priority over learning “nuts and bolts” training. In fact, if a person is properly indoctrinated, they can be taught the other skills too, ultimately mastering them with more zeal than a person who had not been indoctrinated.
Keeping this in mind, the Marines focus on just a few things in boot camp but they drive those few things home. Drill, core values, marksmanship, fighting spirit, physical fitness, and teamwork are really all you learn in Marine Boot Camp. If a recruit masters these, the rest is strictly academic. They learn the more advanced combat skills in a course called Marine Corps Combat Training (MCT).
The Army on the other hand doesn’t get as in-depth with marksmanship, although they do get proficient at shooting, but then focus on assaulting objectives, fire and maneuver, and other combat tasks Marines don’t see until much later. The Army has removed bayonet fighting from basic training based on the rationale that you are not issued a bayonet downrange (slang term for deployed combat area) and no one uses bayonets in combat anymore.
The Marines approach this concept differently. The Marines believe that bayonet drills and bayonet sparring (pugil stick fighting) instill a killer instinct that can be obtained no other way. The Marines then integrate their bayonet fighting into their own indigenous martial art called MCMAP (Marine Corps Martial Arts Program). This fighting system employs the concept of “one mind, any weapon.” A motivated Marine can pick up a shovel and kill the bad guys like Sampson swinging a donkey’s jawbone. Why? Because he is indoctrinated in the art and mentality of a warrior. The Army trains warfare - make no mistake - but it takes the front seat over indoctrination.
5. Everything in Marine Boot Camp is done with speed, intensity, and volume. In Army basic you are required to move very fast, but the tone is different. The Marines “count down” every task in boot camp. That means they say “go” or “ready move” and then you have an allotted amount of time to accomplish the task. If you don’t finish in time, you do it again, and again, and again. I saw more count downs in Airborne School than Army basic training.
I think the reason we don’t do this in the Army as much as the Marines do is because of time constraints. We have much bigger platoons and companies in Army basic training and fewer drill sergeants (or DI if you prefer) than the Marines do. You have somewhere to be and you have more skills to learn and there isn’t enough time to keep putting pants on in less than 30 seconds. But look at it this way: the Marines take a longer period of time (13 weeks in the Marines versus the Army’s 9-10 weeks) to train fewer skills and indoctrinate the mind, body, and soul of the recruit.
This might also explain why we do not spend as much time on drill in Army Basic Training. There are lots of skills to be taught and very little time to do so. Every Army unit I have ever served with has been weak in drill. Sure, we can march from point A to point B, but anything beyond that and we need to rehearse. Why? Because in the Army we do not emphasize drill like we ought to. Drill needs to be on the training schedule like PT or any other task. But we do it in basic training and then we let it go.
6. The Marines use a “rebirth system,” so to speak. Marines are not called Marines verbally or in any other way until they have “earned the title.” The Army calls their recruits “soldiers” from day one.
The Marines understand that you are not a full-fledged Marine until you have earned the insignia of the Eagle, Globe, and Anchor (the EGA as Marines call it). This is not done until the very last week in which recruits participate in an event called The Crucible. This is a 56 hour “gut check.” Recruits undergo a hell week, a series of combat team tasks over that 56 hour period on very little food and sleep.
These tasks are not complex. We are not talking about a huge military strategy here. We are talking about moving ammo cans over an obstacle course, evacuating a casualty under fire through the sucking mud, and getting a squad over a distance with obstacles and difficult terrain.
The crucible awards a “badge” or “award”… the EGA. There is a “becoming” associated with graduating Marine Boot Camp. It’s like a caterpillar emerging from a cocoon as a butterfly or in this case, emerging as an elite warrior. This attitude follows the Marine for the rest of his or her life. It is a significant and emotional event that is never ever forgotten. In order to get that similar effect in the Army, you would have to go to Airborne or even Ranger school.
We must find a way to raise the bar in the Army. We must find a way to make the Army an elite concept. It must become more than a catchy slogan “Army Strong” and a way to make money for college. We must return to the Spartan roots that made us great. Because right now? We are not great.
I have been a drill instructor in a prison boot camp (an adult penitentiary down South) for over six years now. We train and rehabilitate non-violent offenders using a 105-day military style boot camp. Before that, I served for 21 years in the regular Army and worked a gig for Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD) anti-terrorism training organization for the Department of Homeland Security (DHS).
During my military career, I served two tours in South Korea (one of which was retro-actively considered a combat tour because of the unanticipated battle on 23 November 1984), one tour in Germany, two Middle East combat tours, and a total of five and half years as a paratrooper and jumpmaster. I say all this not to spout out my resume, but so that I can assure you that I am absolutely qualified to make the statements I am about to make.
In the last six and a half years since I took on this job, I have been studying to become a drill instructor. Where did I go for my research? The Marine Corps.
I have always been fascinated by the Marines. In fact, I have served alongside them on several occasions. I began reading articles, watching hours and hours of video, and speaking with many Marines (drill instructors and non-drill instructors alike).
Over time, I have become a bit of a self-proclaimed, self-educated expert on Marine training: what they do, how they do it, why they do it, when they do it, etc. In the process of studying their training, I have come to several conclusions. I have also come to several conclusions about the Army, some not so good – some are downright scary.
Here are the things I have learned through my extensive research:
1. The Army runs a softer, “human dignity based” reception and receiving when the recruits arrive. The reception is so weak that it sets a very bad tone for the remainder of not just their training, but for their whole career in the Army. Recruits show up to a firm welcome by the drill sergeants and staff, but it’s not the controlled mayhem of a Marine Corps Recruit Depot (MCRD). In fact, it seems to comfort and reassure soldiers as if to say “calm down and relax, it’s going to be all right.” Now that is all right if that is a message from your mother, but it’s not okay when we are trying to build the next generations of Spartans.
Marine receiving, on the other hand, is a “shock theater” from the minute they get off the bus through their graduation. The mayhem starts when their feet hit the “deck” and it never ever lets up. The discipline and stress is through the roof! The Army reception staff occasionally get perplexed as if to say “silly Private, get over here...shucks, what are you doing?”
In an MCRD, the recruit would be screamed at: ”GET OVER HERE! TOO SLOW, GO BACK! GET OVER HERE! STOP EYEBALLING ME! GET YOUR HEELS TOGETHER! Hey there was something you were supposed to say when told to do something, WHAT WAS IT? RESPOND!…AYE AYE SIR! RESPOND!”
See the difference? Here’s what I always say: weak pick up, weak recruits, strong pick up, strong recruits. That means if you “go in punching,” so to speak, the recruits know you mean business, you are not playing, and you are tougher than they are. You want them to be nearly peeing their pants from fear and stress.
The Army feels we need to treat people with dignity and respect and that people will shut down if screamed at too much. If that were true, the Marines have been doing it wrong since about 1952. That’s around the time that the Smokey bear hat and the structured chaos of boot camp kicked into gear. Don’t get me wrong: the Marines always wrote the book on discipline, but during the 1950’s the MCRDs really stepped up their game.
2. The tone the Army sets in basic training is wrong. The Army trains; the Marines indoctrinate. Do you see the difference? The Marines initiate the recruit into a culture, the Army trains them in tasks. Sure, the Army has core values that are really good. The values make sense and they are motivating, but the Marines ingrain it deeper into a youngster’s soul.
While the Army does change the person’s life, it does not instill the intrinsic values in the same way that the Marines do. Unless you are in an elite Army unit like Infantry, Airborne, Rangers, Special Forces, or Delta, you just don’t have the warrior ethos that the Army claims it builds. If you are a motivated gung-ho individual and you are not in an elite unit, the Army (or at least fellow soldiers) treat you like an oddball. How do I know this? I have spent a total of about 30 years around it, and I have been in Airborne, Infantry, and attached to Special Ops units, as well as regular units. In the Marines, gung-ho motivation is business as usual. You stand out if you aren’t highly motivated.
3. The Marines base their training on indoctrinating the individual into the core values of the Marines. Their training relies heavily on close order drill. They believe that drill instills a sense of teamwork and attention to detail that no other activity can. Drill teaches an individual that there are immediate consequences for an individual’s actions on their group. In other words, when one guy messes up a movement, it doesn’t go unnoticed. That soldier makes his squad look bad, that squad affects the platoon, and so on. Have you ever seen one guy in a formation either doing something late or doing the wrong movement? It sticks out like dog balls!
Now take this concept - that my actions affect the group as a whole - and apply it to war. If I move and am seen by the enemy, I may not just get myself killed, but my whole squad, platoon, company, etc. When you train with that kind of attention to detail, you are disciplined.
The Army conducts impeccable training in close order drill. In fact, the largest source of failure for students at the drill sergeant school is testing of the drill modules. So why does the Army not march as well as the Marines and why is marching not as high a priority in the Army?
4. The Army introduces combat skills earlier than the Marines do. The Army trains more combat tasks in its basic training that the Marines. Now while this may seem like a good idea, it’s really not. Teaching combat tasks before a person is fully indoctrinated in the love of corps and country is a very bad idea. It's like letting a kid who just learned how to drive enter a NASCAR race. The kid may have great skills, coordination, and reflexes, but the reality is that they have only been driving less than a year.
The Marines realize that indoctrination in the love of God, Country, and Corps has priority over learning “nuts and bolts” training. In fact, if a person is properly indoctrinated, they can be taught the other skills too, ultimately mastering them with more zeal than a person who had not been indoctrinated.
Keeping this in mind, the Marines focus on just a few things in boot camp but they drive those few things home. Drill, core values, marksmanship, fighting spirit, physical fitness, and teamwork are really all you learn in Marine Boot Camp. If a recruit masters these, the rest is strictly academic. They learn the more advanced combat skills in a course called Marine Corps Combat Training (MCT).
The Army on the other hand doesn’t get as in-depth with marksmanship, although they do get proficient at shooting, but then focus on assaulting objectives, fire and maneuver, and other combat tasks Marines don’t see until much later. The Army has removed bayonet fighting from basic training based on the rationale that you are not issued a bayonet downrange (slang term for deployed combat area) and no one uses bayonets in combat anymore.
The Marines approach this concept differently. The Marines believe that bayonet drills and bayonet sparring (pugil stick fighting) instill a killer instinct that can be obtained no other way. The Marines then integrate their bayonet fighting into their own indigenous martial art called MCMAP (Marine Corps Martial Arts Program). This fighting system employs the concept of “one mind, any weapon.” A motivated Marine can pick up a shovel and kill the bad guys like Sampson swinging a donkey’s jawbone. Why? Because he is indoctrinated in the art and mentality of a warrior. The Army trains warfare - make no mistake - but it takes the front seat over indoctrination.
5. Everything in Marine Boot Camp is done with speed, intensity, and volume. In Army basic you are required to move very fast, but the tone is different. The Marines “count down” every task in boot camp. That means they say “go” or “ready move” and then you have an allotted amount of time to accomplish the task. If you don’t finish in time, you do it again, and again, and again. I saw more count downs in Airborne School than Army basic training.
I think the reason we don’t do this in the Army as much as the Marines do is because of time constraints. We have much bigger platoons and companies in Army basic training and fewer drill sergeants (or DI if you prefer) than the Marines do. You have somewhere to be and you have more skills to learn and there isn’t enough time to keep putting pants on in less than 30 seconds. But look at it this way: the Marines take a longer period of time (13 weeks in the Marines versus the Army’s 9-10 weeks) to train fewer skills and indoctrinate the mind, body, and soul of the recruit.
This might also explain why we do not spend as much time on drill in Army Basic Training. There are lots of skills to be taught and very little time to do so. Every Army unit I have ever served with has been weak in drill. Sure, we can march from point A to point B, but anything beyond that and we need to rehearse. Why? Because in the Army we do not emphasize drill like we ought to. Drill needs to be on the training schedule like PT or any other task. But we do it in basic training and then we let it go.
6. The Marines use a “rebirth system,” so to speak. Marines are not called Marines verbally or in any other way until they have “earned the title.” The Army calls their recruits “soldiers” from day one.
The Marines understand that you are not a full-fledged Marine until you have earned the insignia of the Eagle, Globe, and Anchor (the EGA as Marines call it). This is not done until the very last week in which recruits participate in an event called The Crucible. This is a 56 hour “gut check.” Recruits undergo a hell week, a series of combat team tasks over that 56 hour period on very little food and sleep.
These tasks are not complex. We are not talking about a huge military strategy here. We are talking about moving ammo cans over an obstacle course, evacuating a casualty under fire through the sucking mud, and getting a squad over a distance with obstacles and difficult terrain.
The crucible awards a “badge” or “award”… the EGA. There is a “becoming” associated with graduating Marine Boot Camp. It’s like a caterpillar emerging from a cocoon as a butterfly or in this case, emerging as an elite warrior. This attitude follows the Marine for the rest of his or her life. It is a significant and emotional event that is never ever forgotten. In order to get that similar effect in the Army, you would have to go to Airborne or even Ranger school.
We must find a way to raise the bar in the Army. We must find a way to make the Army an elite concept. It must become more than a catchy slogan “Army Strong” and a way to make money for college. We must return to the Spartan roots that made us great. Because right now? We are not great.
Marine Corps
Culture
Standards
Command Post
Posted 10 y ago
Responses: 147
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There is always room in the Army to tighten up just like in any other service. I've been a student of Army schools on numerous occasions and was impressed by the professionalism, engagement and intellect of the Army officers I was learning along side with. I also served in both Iraq and Afghanistan along side them, and depended on them numerous occasions. I was never let down. This is "my Army" too...and I'm just as proud of their service as I am the fellow Marines I serve with. I for one would like to see them tighten up on the discipline (in this case entry level training) and on the weight standards. The rest will/would fall into place. Nothing but respect for them though...they are our brothers, and I'd share a foxhole with any of them any time, any place, as I know they'd have my back as I would have theirs in a firefight. Just look at the population of the Medal of Honor recipients and numerable successes, up to and including the capture of Saddaam Hussein. I've got nothing but respect for our fellow green warriors.
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SPC Cesar Freytes
The Marines have a disciplinary problem, that's why the Japanese want them out of Okinawa, rape and assault to minor children for you army asses that want to be Marines JOIN THE FRINKING MARINES. I Don't get it
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Why is this a better way to train? What are the statistics to back it up. How many more % marines get out or stay in after their first enlistment. What is the cost of training a soldier vs. a Marine? How does that make them more effective on today's battle field where most combat is fought at a distance with jets, tanks, artillery, and Multiple Launch Rocket systems? The perception that they think they are better doesn't make them better. They are trained for their job which is small arms combat, as are Special Forces, Delta and Rangers. But if you need a electronics technician to fix communications systems during the mother of all battles or a highly skilled interpreter to translate Arabic and decode the hidden meaning in a terrorist transmission that will save many civilian lives, you don't want an ground pounder who can say Sir Yes Sir. You want a technically trained expert who stayed in the Army for multiple years to hone their craft and increase their knowledge.
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SSG Lon Watson
You've missed my point entirely. It's not about cost, technology, or equipment. It's about an ethos!
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CPL Clyde Willis
SSG Lon Watson I think you missed the point. It has to be about the cost. Also, what about the other statistics? Have you seen them?
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SSG Lon Watson Having served first as a Marine, then as a soldier, I'm with you all the way on this one. A couple of things I'd sharpen to a finer point, though:
first, the Army 9-10 weeks and the Marine Corps 13 weeks are not exactly accomplishing the same thing. The Marine Corps 13 weeks results in every Marine being a basic Infantryman, and future MOS training comes on top of that, so I would argue the point about the luxury of time. Army Infantry OSUT is 13 weeks. I'd relate it to that instead of just a plain-jane 10 week boot camp. Time is of the essence for EVERYTHING in Marine Corps Basic training. Also, who told you that Marine Recruits get 30 seconds to put on their pants (Trousers)?? Hell, if they had given me 30 seconds to put on my trousers, I could have slept another 20 seconds!
first, the Army 9-10 weeks and the Marine Corps 13 weeks are not exactly accomplishing the same thing. The Marine Corps 13 weeks results in every Marine being a basic Infantryman, and future MOS training comes on top of that, so I would argue the point about the luxury of time. Army Infantry OSUT is 13 weeks. I'd relate it to that instead of just a plain-jane 10 week boot camp. Time is of the essence for EVERYTHING in Marine Corps Basic training. Also, who told you that Marine Recruits get 30 seconds to put on their pants (Trousers)?? Hell, if they had given me 30 seconds to put on my trousers, I could have slept another 20 seconds!
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Cpl D L Parker
Hell, if they had given me 30 seconds to put on my trousers, I could have slept another 20 seconds!...GOOD ONE :-D
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GySgt (Join to see)
Marine Boot camp does not create basic Infantrymen - it creates basically trained Marines with a smidge of the basics on Infantry common skills. When a Marine goes to the School of Infantry the first (roughly) two weeks are the complete Basic Infantryman skills package creating 0300 Marines and then the remainder of the school is learning their specific MOS (0311, etc). But I am picking up what you are putting down - and just thought to add to your post.
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SGT Richard H.
GySgt (Join to see) - I definitely understand where you're coming from, and I was always aware that Marines that would actually serve in an Infantry unit would go on to an MOS Specific school...however, my records jacket still calls my primary MOS 0300 (my duty MOS was 6531). This may well have changed to some degree since I went to basic almost 33 years ago (before they called the Pendleton phase "crucible"), but I'm sure the USMC philosophy of "everyone's a grunt first" hasn't changed.
At any rate, the point of my post was to relate it to the army, which has a format of a 13 week OSUT (one station unit training) for Infantry which is 8 weeks of basic and the remainder of Infantry skills training. I didn't go to Army basic or AIT, but I can tell you that coming from a USMC aviation MOS going to the Army as an 11B, my "new guy" Infantry skills were at least equal to most guys I ran across who were coming out of Army Infantry OSUT.
At any rate, the point of my post was to relate it to the army, which has a format of a 13 week OSUT (one station unit training) for Infantry which is 8 weeks of basic and the remainder of Infantry skills training. I didn't go to Army basic or AIT, but I can tell you that coming from a USMC aviation MOS going to the Army as an 11B, my "new guy" Infantry skills were at least equal to most guys I ran across who were coming out of Army Infantry OSUT.
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The Marine Corps breaks you down as an individual, to build you up as part of a team. This process makes you no less or more important than the lowest member of the team.
The Corps instills a sense of confidence and invisibility in every Marine. You are trained to believe there is nothing you can't achieve or accomplish, no matter how difficult the situation. You adapt, improvise, and overcome!
It doesn't mattet if we are the best or if anyone else thinks we sre the best; we know and believe we are the best and will accept any challenge.
There is something special about the title, United States Marine!
The Corps instills a sense of confidence and invisibility in every Marine. You are trained to believe there is nothing you can't achieve or accomplish, no matter how difficult the situation. You adapt, improvise, and overcome!
It doesn't mattet if we are the best or if anyone else thinks we sre the best; we know and believe we are the best and will accept any challenge.
There is something special about the title, United States Marine!
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Sgt (Join to see)
Sgt Joe LaBranche Joe, the good thing is that the title is forever. Once a Marine, Always a Marine.
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I have been out of the military too many years to add to this discussion about the Army. But back in the '50s & 60s we Marines did not have a very high opinion of the National Guard. However a few years ago I was a volunteer fitness trainer working with the Wounded Warriors Program for the VA . All of the guys were in the National Guard and we had them try a new program that included a Green Diet, Cardio Exercise and Spirituality to combat PTSD, and Chronic Depression. I really had a lot of respect for these guys who had served multiple tours in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Some had serious issues. And they all thought the VA recommended Green Diet was cruel and unusual punishment. I think they enjoyed having a Trainer who was much older than they were and we built a pretty good repoire .. They nicknamed me "The Ole Sarge" and I think this program did help but I was not privy to their quesionaires or physical exams. This program was designed by Stanford Medical University and used by the VA in Palo Alto and in Minneapolis... The results have been favorable because the VA wants to get some PTSD patients off medications. And this program was a substitute because some medications had advers side effects including suicide or mixing the meds with alcohol...
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No disrespect to the army, but I did not enjoy working with them, they tended to be slovenly and lazy. Working with the Royal Marines was a pleasure, very professional and incredibly fit.
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SSG (Join to see)
Seems funny, I trained with Marine's and a few of them are exactly like you describe the army, I tend not to lump a people into one category because of a few. In Afghanistan I worked with some outstanding Marines, Air Force and Navy along with a lot of NATO troops being in a Liaison team. I would never disrespect any of the service because of a couple of bad apples.
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SPC(P) Jay Heenan
Sgt Nick Marshall
"...No disrespect to the Army, but I did not enjoy working with them, they tended to be slovenly and lazy..."
You just grouped all Soldiers into a "slovenly and lazy" group, but you preface your statement by saying, "No disrespect to the army". How is anyone able to deduct anything other than disrespect?
"...No disrespect to the Army, but I did not enjoy working with them, they tended to be slovenly and lazy..."
You just grouped all Soldiers into a "slovenly and lazy" group, but you preface your statement by saying, "No disrespect to the army". How is anyone able to deduct anything other than disrespect?
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Sgt Nick Marshall
SPC(P) Jay Heenan - I only with a few units, I'm sure it didnt represent the Army as an entirety, (at least I hope not!)
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Interesting read indeed. Why did you join the Army? You clearly have a love affair with the Marines...I am not saying it is a bad thing, but you wrote this big article (as a U.S. Soldier) talking about how the Marines are better. Maybe this is part of the reason you think that we are "Army wrong". I was stationed on MCB, and I promise that there are plenty of 'ate up' Marines as well. Personally, I think that you are being part of the problem and not the solution to your own posting.
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SGT Matthew Einsla
SFC Derrick Graves - Really, I met so many former marines in the Army. If they loved it so much they wouldn't have left in the first place.
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SFC Derrick Graves
Sgt (Verify To See) - Lame excuse to avoid the truth. That's a typical a response I would expect from a member of an organization where most of the members are insecure and have to lash out to make others acknowledge their identity.
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SPC(P) Jay Heenan
Sgt Richard Buckner SFC Derrick Graves
Gentlemen, we are all brothers and sisters! Poking fun at other services is okay, let's not make it personal.
Gentlemen, we are all brothers and sisters! Poking fun at other services is okay, let's not make it personal.
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SFC Derrick Graves
Sgt (Verify To See) - I also did my 20 and have nothing to be ashamed of either. I see you still suffer from that egotism just like that Colonel. But make no mistake the Army will endure like it always has despite the lip service from a few insecure folks
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When you’re wounded and that Dustoff bird is coming in, I’ll bet you don’t care how well that medic coming down the hoist and the crewchief running can march. Or how tough the reception station was on those two warrant officers up front. Beal, 1SG. 4/421 Med Co (AA)
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So you're asking why the Army can't make EVERY non-combat MOS like every Marine?
The same reasons as always: time and money. This really can't be an issue you're having, right? I mean, you see where our budgets are going, and the fact remains that nobody asks the Human Resources Specialist or Paralegal to walk a combat patrol anymore than I'd ask an 11B to process court martial proceedings. Does every MOS need to be proficient with basic Soldier skills and tasks? Of course, but the entire USMC is built around expeditionary warfare, whereas, we have a Corps within the Army (XVIII Airborne) for that purpose, and within the legacy divisions of that formation, I defy you to show a lack of discipline, tactical and technical expertise and esprit de corps.
And our special operations capabilities AND capacity are far larger, which we manage to achieve despite your assertion that our initial entry system is flawed.
Next question.
The same reasons as always: time and money. This really can't be an issue you're having, right? I mean, you see where our budgets are going, and the fact remains that nobody asks the Human Resources Specialist or Paralegal to walk a combat patrol anymore than I'd ask an 11B to process court martial proceedings. Does every MOS need to be proficient with basic Soldier skills and tasks? Of course, but the entire USMC is built around expeditionary warfare, whereas, we have a Corps within the Army (XVIII Airborne) for that purpose, and within the legacy divisions of that formation, I defy you to show a lack of discipline, tactical and technical expertise and esprit de corps.
And our special operations capabilities AND capacity are far larger, which we manage to achieve despite your assertion that our initial entry system is flawed.
Next question.
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SSG Lon Watson
No sir you've missed my point. I'm not talking about the combat skills of the clerks or support personnel. I'm talking about discipline. There is little or no discipline in support units/personnel. In the Marines corps and admin clerk has a high level of bearing and discipline. And the marines DO NOT start off with higher caliber applicants. They mold marines in a fiery furnace. Our mentality in the army is different. Changing our mentality costs nothing.
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SFC Marcus Belt
SSG Lon Watson - Your information is faulty: we let candidates into the Army with waivers that wouldn't be accepted into the Marines. Higher caliber? I won't day that because some, no, MOST (!) of those Soldiers go on to do their jobs admirably and honorably.
"...mold Marines in a fiery furnace..." Right. So your argument is that we need to make Basic suck more so that I get a bunch of brainwashed primates (with opposable thumbs and M4s) who are incapable of thinking independently?
Maybe I'm biased, as I AM a part of the Airborne and SOF communities, and am an alum of the 82d Airborne, but I don't need Soldiers who can't think. I train and expect Soldiers to be able to know and understand their operational environments and be able to deal with the political implications of our actions.
We have to train Soldiers for chess, not checkers, and you're talking about a perceived lack of "hooah" among support MOSs?
C'mon man. Those days are over.
"...mold Marines in a fiery furnace..." Right. So your argument is that we need to make Basic suck more so that I get a bunch of brainwashed primates (with opposable thumbs and M4s) who are incapable of thinking independently?
Maybe I'm biased, as I AM a part of the Airborne and SOF communities, and am an alum of the 82d Airborne, but I don't need Soldiers who can't think. I train and expect Soldiers to be able to know and understand their operational environments and be able to deal with the political implications of our actions.
We have to train Soldiers for chess, not checkers, and you're talking about a perceived lack of "hooah" among support MOSs?
C'mon man. Those days are over.
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I'm glad to see that someone has recognized the Army has become "One Big Social Experiment" by Civilians and Politicians through the eyes of someone from the outside looking in!!!
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