Posted on Jan 12, 2015
Career Sacrifice: The Things We Give Up To Avoid Mediocrity
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Greetings fellow warriors! I hope I will be able to impart some knowledge and initiate some meaningful and rewarding conversations around our profession of arms. Although I have some joint experience, most of my commentary will center on the Army Reserves. The subject of this article came to mind with the receipt of an email from LG Talley, USARC CG, regarding the recovery of unsatisfactory participants (unsats) from troop program units. This missive doesn’t really have much to do with unsats, but more about the conversation regarding the memo from the Chief of the Army Reserves (CAR).
I have spoken with many active duty and retired military personnel regarding their overall experiences of service. Among them, I have heard many stories of how a person’s civilian career has suffered because of their involvement with the Army Reserves. I have personally experienced it in some form or another, probably not as severely as others, but an impact nonetheless. It affects people differently. You may think that your company supports your service, and they may even think they do, until you start to get promoted in the Reserves or are mobilized.
In my case, when my first deployment came, my company said all the right things. They gave me the company policies, they told me that my job would be waiting when I got back, they even paid me during the first two months I was gone. The issues only surfaced upon my return. When I got back, my peers had all been promoted and been given offices, yet I was an afterthought. Later when my company was acquired, I was no longer thought of as the Director who had led production support for 10 years and had enacted good and meaningful change, but was simply the guy who had recently returned from deployment, completing “odd” jobs until a place was found for him. I was not even on the list of employees to be transitioned to the new organization. I did eventually, through networking, find a position within the new company. However, it had not been acquired through the sanctioned transition process, therefore I was bypassed for an advancement. Eventually, a year deployment had turned into a three-year stagnation of my civilian career.
This is not an anecdotal story. I once talked with an officer who worked for a law firm, and while his military career was stellar, achieving the rank of Colonel, he could not advance within his firm. They even told him he needed to make a choice — he could achieve success in his civilian career or in his military career, but not both.
I know what you’re thinking: “We have the Soldiers and Sailors Relief Act! We have ESGR! They can’t do that.” I beg to differ, because they still do it. In fact, they do it every day, and they do it creatively. It makes people think long and hard about their continuation in the military. In the example of the Colonel who was given a choice, he had already gotten past the point of no return, so he stayed. Usually, it is at the O3 level when an officer decides, and at the E6 level where an NCO decides whether they have had enough. Coincidentally, these are also the grades for which the Army Reserve is most in need. It is also at this point in a Soldier’s career when the Reserve system asks much more than one weekend a month and two weeks a year - most of which is unpaid, unscheduled, and falls at some of the most inopportune times. Imagine, you have worked your way up only to work your tail off for less than minimum wage once all the hours are factored in. If you question this rationale, ask any Battalion Commander or Command Sergeant Major to show you the hours he/she puts in.
This is my experience and that of those I have worked with. Now, I’d like to hear from you. What are your experiences? What does your employer think of you not being able to work over the weekend on a big system implementation, because you have battle assembly? What if your company has scheduled an important town hall meeting, but you can’t go because annual training is scheduled, or you have to leave a meeting because your Brigade Commander is at a conference and needs to know the latest influenza inoculation statistics? What can be done to make it better on both ends of the spectrum? Or do we need to settle for a mediocre civilian career in order to serve our country?
I have spoken with many active duty and retired military personnel regarding their overall experiences of service. Among them, I have heard many stories of how a person’s civilian career has suffered because of their involvement with the Army Reserves. I have personally experienced it in some form or another, probably not as severely as others, but an impact nonetheless. It affects people differently. You may think that your company supports your service, and they may even think they do, until you start to get promoted in the Reserves or are mobilized.
In my case, when my first deployment came, my company said all the right things. They gave me the company policies, they told me that my job would be waiting when I got back, they even paid me during the first two months I was gone. The issues only surfaced upon my return. When I got back, my peers had all been promoted and been given offices, yet I was an afterthought. Later when my company was acquired, I was no longer thought of as the Director who had led production support for 10 years and had enacted good and meaningful change, but was simply the guy who had recently returned from deployment, completing “odd” jobs until a place was found for him. I was not even on the list of employees to be transitioned to the new organization. I did eventually, through networking, find a position within the new company. However, it had not been acquired through the sanctioned transition process, therefore I was bypassed for an advancement. Eventually, a year deployment had turned into a three-year stagnation of my civilian career.
This is not an anecdotal story. I once talked with an officer who worked for a law firm, and while his military career was stellar, achieving the rank of Colonel, he could not advance within his firm. They even told him he needed to make a choice — he could achieve success in his civilian career or in his military career, but not both.
I know what you’re thinking: “We have the Soldiers and Sailors Relief Act! We have ESGR! They can’t do that.” I beg to differ, because they still do it. In fact, they do it every day, and they do it creatively. It makes people think long and hard about their continuation in the military. In the example of the Colonel who was given a choice, he had already gotten past the point of no return, so he stayed. Usually, it is at the O3 level when an officer decides, and at the E6 level where an NCO decides whether they have had enough. Coincidentally, these are also the grades for which the Army Reserve is most in need. It is also at this point in a Soldier’s career when the Reserve system asks much more than one weekend a month and two weeks a year - most of which is unpaid, unscheduled, and falls at some of the most inopportune times. Imagine, you have worked your way up only to work your tail off for less than minimum wage once all the hours are factored in. If you question this rationale, ask any Battalion Commander or Command Sergeant Major to show you the hours he/she puts in.
This is my experience and that of those I have worked with. Now, I’d like to hear from you. What are your experiences? What does your employer think of you not being able to work over the weekend on a big system implementation, because you have battle assembly? What if your company has scheduled an important town hall meeting, but you can’t go because annual training is scheduled, or you have to leave a meeting because your Brigade Commander is at a conference and needs to know the latest influenza inoculation statistics? What can be done to make it better on both ends of the spectrum? Or do we need to settle for a mediocre civilian career in order to serve our country?
Army Reserve
Civilian Career
Military Career
Command Post
Edited 10 y ago
Posted 11 y ago
Responses: 24
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CSM David Heidke It is absolutely an accurate statement that one career or the other may suffer. Even working for the government, I have experienced that (from a former Ranger no less).
Really makes you feel good when your boss in a meeting with the entire staff tells you that "you need to decide if you are playing Air Force or Marine or whatever the f#ck or if you are going to work here". You really get a good feeling.
Then (job was secure), when you are putting in for jobs within the agency, and you don't get them, transitional assignments come out and you don't get them, important duties pass you by, you wonder if that is the cause....that feeling is hard to lose.
Flip side is that new boss comes in, former military as well, and while you are deployed, you put in for a promotion, and get it (while deployed), makes you sort of forget the first boss who did not understand what is up, and really appreciate a boss who does get it.
I understand the difficulty of the employer with military employees, it does cause hardship. But our Nation does need the Reserves and Guard, does need those who will walk away from everything they love and put it all on the line for their Nation. Those folks (and I am one) need to know that their job is there when they come home. And you are correct in that there comes a point when decisions must be made about the "worth" of a dual career. It is not one weekend a month anymore, not by a longshot. But, it is worth it.
The best thing that I have found, is to be completely transparent with both my civilian and military employers about what is going on, from both perspectives. Having a boss that truly supports military is fantastic, and I hope to keep it that way. As soon as I hear grumblings about something on either side, I let the other know.
The truly hard part is that both bosses want you to feel that their issues to be the important ones.....and you have to figure out how to make them know that you do feel that way.
Really makes you feel good when your boss in a meeting with the entire staff tells you that "you need to decide if you are playing Air Force or Marine or whatever the f#ck or if you are going to work here". You really get a good feeling.
Then (job was secure), when you are putting in for jobs within the agency, and you don't get them, transitional assignments come out and you don't get them, important duties pass you by, you wonder if that is the cause....that feeling is hard to lose.
Flip side is that new boss comes in, former military as well, and while you are deployed, you put in for a promotion, and get it (while deployed), makes you sort of forget the first boss who did not understand what is up, and really appreciate a boss who does get it.
I understand the difficulty of the employer with military employees, it does cause hardship. But our Nation does need the Reserves and Guard, does need those who will walk away from everything they love and put it all on the line for their Nation. Those folks (and I am one) need to know that their job is there when they come home. And you are correct in that there comes a point when decisions must be made about the "worth" of a dual career. It is not one weekend a month anymore, not by a longshot. But, it is worth it.
The best thing that I have found, is to be completely transparent with both my civilian and military employers about what is going on, from both perspectives. Having a boss that truly supports military is fantastic, and I hope to keep it that way. As soon as I hear grumblings about something on either side, I let the other know.
The truly hard part is that both bosses want you to feel that their issues to be the important ones.....and you have to figure out how to make them know that you do feel that way.
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CPT Pedro Meza
I was a Special Education teacher that during my deployments resigned my teaching position so that a Special Education teacher could be hired to take my spot instead of having a temp teacher; my students deserved it.
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LTC (Join to see)
I wish this were not true. I have even recently been asked by my Active Duty boss about and conditions of employment that he might use to force my hand about my Reserve duty. SMH
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MSG (Join to see)
although went on a job interview and my reserve service was brought up, of course i did'nt get the job and i knew it from the look on the hr reps face, guardian glass, went next door to my current employer for over 10 years
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I was recently released early from a temporary position a week before reporting for my Annual Training. I knew my employer was being pressured by the client to reduce the number of workers on the project, and while it was never said out loud, I was left with the impression that I was selected due to the fact that I was going to be gone for 2 weeks. As a result, I was left unemployed after returning from AT. While most employers talk a good game, I can't help but wonder how many opportunities I have lost because they were uneasy about my military obligations. I have had my own soldiers put their civilian jobs over their military jobs simply because of the poor job market and not wanting to risk losing their civilian positions. I feel that a strengthening of the SSRA is needed, so that younger soldiers can feel a bit more secure.
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After 13 years of similar treatment, I've finally found an employer for whom "supporting the troops" is much more than lip service: Booz Allen Hamilton.
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I currently work for one of the largest privately held food service companies and this is my second deployment while working there. I have to say that they have gone above the standard in the way I have been treated. I don't blame them or my military service for not getting promoted, just a matter of circumstance. Being in IT has been a detriment because being out of that world for a year can be devastating as things constantly change. After my first deployment they worked very hard to put me in another position because my position essentially was eliminated for technological reasons. When I worked for one of the big seven accounting firms they were not quite as accommodating. They essentially tried to fire me 6 months after I returned from Kosovo for no reason other than I made to much money. As for my first deployment I worked for one of the big 3 and they were fantastic, paid me, paid for health insurance and promoted me when I returned. I have been extremely lucky and grateful that I will retire at 30 and know that I've been able to continue my military and civilian career with the unequivocal support of my employers
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SFC Kenneth Hunnell
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CSM Timothy Renninger, Did you read the other post, I agree IT changes on a daily bases. But, not everyone has that kind of job. If you read the post , you will see the trend. Employers do not want to make the sacrifice that the individuals make.
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CSM Timothy Renninger, Did you read the other post, I agree IT changes on a daily bases. But, not everyone has that kind of job. If you read the post , you will see the trend. Employers do not want to make the sacrifice that the individuals make.
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CSM (Join to see)
SFC Hunnel. I understand that I may be an exception in this case. However I don't want people to paint a generalized picture of all employers.
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I went back into the National Guard a little time after watching my manager not hire someone because they were in the reserves, it really made me mad because he was the best qualified for the job. I was a Manufacturing Supervisor when I first deployed in 2008, had 22 people working on my shift. When I got back in 2009 there were only 4 left so I saw the writing on the wall and took a lower paying Gov't job. I heard right after that they were planning to let me go after I came back but were looking for a reason to use as a excuse so they would not get in trouble with ESGR.
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Thanks for all the responses to my first submission.
I did not want this article to come across that I was trying to make it sound like all companies will do this to a Soldier. I have many instances that the company did right by the Soldier. My father in law was in the Air National Guard. He had a colleague who worked for Raytheon. They paid his full salary while he was mobilized and the guy was a Lieutenant Colonel. I had a couple of other colleagues while I was mobilized who got paid full salary while mobilized. One was NYPD the other worked for an investment firm. I commend those companies who can take care of an employee who also serves there country.
What I was getting at had to do with a reply to the email I alluded to. It was a Captain who was mentioning how we should be taking this into accounts when we are trying to recover Unsatisfactory participants. That many of these Soldiers are trying to balance the life, and to be brutally honest, the Reserve components don’t put the bread on the table. He said that we need to be compassionate to this and try to make the best possible compromises in order to keep otherwise good Soldiers.
For instance. I had a very good company commander when I was a Drill Sergeant. I wanted to go back to school to get my bachelor’s degree in an executive degree program. This program required me to attend class every other Saturday. She allowed me to not attend Battle Assembly on those days where they conflicted. I would attend the Sunday, but not the Saturday. She helped my career in ways that I cannot begin to thank her for. It also helped my military career, as the degree helped for promotion. She saw the bigger picture, and she allowed me to make up the time. And the work I did to make up the time was also a great value to mission accomplishment.
I did not want this article to come across that I was trying to make it sound like all companies will do this to a Soldier. I have many instances that the company did right by the Soldier. My father in law was in the Air National Guard. He had a colleague who worked for Raytheon. They paid his full salary while he was mobilized and the guy was a Lieutenant Colonel. I had a couple of other colleagues while I was mobilized who got paid full salary while mobilized. One was NYPD the other worked for an investment firm. I commend those companies who can take care of an employee who also serves there country.
What I was getting at had to do with a reply to the email I alluded to. It was a Captain who was mentioning how we should be taking this into accounts when we are trying to recover Unsatisfactory participants. That many of these Soldiers are trying to balance the life, and to be brutally honest, the Reserve components don’t put the bread on the table. He said that we need to be compassionate to this and try to make the best possible compromises in order to keep otherwise good Soldiers.
For instance. I had a very good company commander when I was a Drill Sergeant. I wanted to go back to school to get my bachelor’s degree in an executive degree program. This program required me to attend class every other Saturday. She allowed me to not attend Battle Assembly on those days where they conflicted. I would attend the Sunday, but not the Saturday. She helped my career in ways that I cannot begin to thank her for. It also helped my military career, as the degree helped for promotion. She saw the bigger picture, and she allowed me to make up the time. And the work I did to make up the time was also a great value to mission accomplishment.
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MAJ (Join to see)
I concur entirely with the Captain, My life story in a nutshell Lost my job during my first mobilization, when I returned from my second I got the "If I would have known I wouldn't have hired you," and at that time I was a DA Civilian.
As a company commander I had a very strict BDE policy on what I could allow an RST for and that policy made no leeway for employers. The hardest part was it is not the typical unsats that we are loosing it is the cream of the unit's skill and leadership that was leaving due to work.
My only recommended source of action is to promote senior officers who actually had company command in the reserve. In that Engineer Battalion and BDE none of the key leadership had reserve company time. Key leadership is AGR S3's CDR, Deputy CDR.
As a company commander I had a very strict BDE policy on what I could allow an RST for and that policy made no leeway for employers. The hardest part was it is not the typical unsats that we are loosing it is the cream of the unit's skill and leadership that was leaving due to work.
My only recommended source of action is to promote senior officers who actually had company command in the reserve. In that Engineer Battalion and BDE none of the key leadership had reserve company time. Key leadership is AGR S3's CDR, Deputy CDR.
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Suspended Profile
OP I had a similar experience. I used to work for the largest semi-conductor capital equipment manufacture in the world. I had very good career progression and moved into management quickly. I had 12 years in and deployed for 16 months to lovely Iraq. I got back and experienced what you did. The funny part is, I was a senior manager in HR!!! My manager left the company, new senior management came in and a reorg happened. The environment had totally changed. That and add three hurricane activations over a 4 years period. Like you I was that guy who might need to go for weeks or months at the drop of a hat. One year and one day after I was back from deployment I was laid off. That was October 18th, 2008. Over the last 6 years I've been working to catch up. I've had some very good offers and chased two of them. After I'd boarded for E9 and won a coveted CSM position with in our division, I turned it down and retired 18 months later after a 20 year career. As a reserve component Soldier I decided it simply wasn't worth it any more. For me and my family I needed to focus on getting my civilian career back on track as an enlisted M-Day retirement doesn't pay very much. Just to level set the AD folks, a Reserve component E8, with 20 years and three to four years of active time gets about $775-ish in retirement and you don't draw it until age 60. Yes 60. There a bunch of other factors (retired reserve, blah, blah, blah) but it ain't much.
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SSRA is better than nothing, but it is most definitely not everything. Really, all it requires is that the employer not be an idiot.... Whatever action they take has "nothing" to do with reserve duty and is 100% in accordance with documented company policy and practice...
I have the advantage of a GREAT civilian employer (it doesn't hurt that my boss is a retired O5), but I didn't always. I remember one employer where I was told in I needed to expect no time off to make up for my two week vacation playing Army (I also remember quitting that job just a couple days later....). I have known several Soldiers who have either had serious issues or had their civilian careers derailed because of military service in the reserve forces.
I have made it a point, ever since the employer I mentioned above, of highlighting the fact that I was in the reserves and that would be a draw on my time - and were they OK with that? in the interview. I tried to bring it up in such a way as to get a real, rather than an "official", answer.
Unfortunately, and a lot of people don't like this answer, you are going to have to put a lot of extra -uncompensated, at least in the short term - time in to make both work, but it can be done.
I have the advantage of a GREAT civilian employer (it doesn't hurt that my boss is a retired O5), but I didn't always. I remember one employer where I was told in I needed to expect no time off to make up for my two week vacation playing Army (I also remember quitting that job just a couple days later....). I have known several Soldiers who have either had serious issues or had their civilian careers derailed because of military service in the reserve forces.
I have made it a point, ever since the employer I mentioned above, of highlighting the fact that I was in the reserves and that would be a draw on my time - and were they OK with that? in the interview. I tried to bring it up in such a way as to get a real, rather than an "official", answer.
Unfortunately, and a lot of people don't like this answer, you are going to have to put a lot of extra -uncompensated, at least in the short term - time in to make both work, but it can be done.
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MSG (Join to see)
i went to job interviewand yes i will name this company guardian glass, when i mentioned i was reservist well you can guess, got job next door zotos been there for 9 years and a deployment to iraq
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CSM David Heidke
MSG (Join to see) - This has a little truth to it, but bottom line, if the government isn't willing to go all in to protect the Soldier, they won't. I've seen that happen too.
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MSG (Join to see)
the problem is proof, you go on interview they say what ever but you're still out of job, like i said went next door got a job asap, been there 10 yrs they supporrt me 100%, unless a company is federally funded, your still at the will of the company, termination for just cause, job irradication that was a favorite in 90-91 just ask pa sms this, in 90-91 i went out one year retained all seniority and benies why had govt contract usn, current work 08-09 they were just good people and did right by me
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when i was in college i left AD and was SMP with the ARNG as an ROTC Cadet. when 9/11 happened and units were getting the orders for deployment. I gave a month notice to my employer that i was leaving college and going back on AD with my unit to Afghanistan. Within a week i was fired bc they wanted loyal long term employees and i was not a good fit. So i pushed up my reunion with my unit and joined the fight.
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This is something that especially worries me as I am slated to deploy this year (for the first time). What kind of an environment am I looking at coming back to?
I do also see the effects of the "more than one weekend a month" coming about as well. All the paperwork that needs to be submitted, reviews for individuals, the ever changing requirements for upcoming schools, additional duties, etc. This all being compounded by my inability to consistently connect to most military systems due to the way they are programmed (generally best utilized on government systems only) and therefore must travel to an Armory to do many of the simple things such as DTS or checking my email.
I do also see the effects of the "more than one weekend a month" coming about as well. All the paperwork that needs to be submitted, reviews for individuals, the ever changing requirements for upcoming schools, additional duties, etc. This all being compounded by my inability to consistently connect to most military systems due to the way they are programmed (generally best utilized on government systems only) and therefore must travel to an Armory to do many of the simple things such as DTS or checking my email.
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