Posted on Oct 9, 2014
Does the Camp Lejeune death show we need to crack down on firearm safety?
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Yesterday, Marine Lance Cpl. Brandon Little was sentenced to two years behind bars for inadvertently shooting and killing a fellow Marine outside the Camp Lejeune main gate back in April. Little’s rank and pay were also reduced to E-1, and he will receive a dishonorable discharge.
Little said he had been absent-mindedly flicking the safety switch on his M4 service rifle from “safe” to “semi” while directing traffic at the end of a 12-hour shift. When he returned to the gate house he was about to unload his weapon, but didn’t check to make sure the safety was on. He pulled back the charging handle and accidentally chambered a round. When that happened, he stood up to try to correct it, but pulled the trigger in the process, shooting Lance Cpl. Mark Boterf who was in front of him.
The lead attorney for the government argued Little should get a five-year sentence with forfeiture of all pay and rank and a dishonorable discharge for violating all four of the Marines’ cardinal firearms safety rules. Would a tougher sentence have sent a more powerful message for all Marines and service members?
On the other hand, Little’s defense pointed out he had taken full responsibility for his actions and stressed he will endure a lifetime of guilt and torment for what happened. Since this is an isolated incident, should Little’s punishment be left at that?
This tragic case certainly brings attention to the importance of weapon safety and proper procedures. The Marine’s death was an accident, but it could have easily been prevented had Little not been messing around with his gun. Are some service members becoming too comfortable with carrying such powerful weapons that they forget safety measures?
What can be done to prevent these tragedies from happening? What are some mistakes you’ve seen fellow service members make with their firearms that go against proper safety measures?
Little said he had been absent-mindedly flicking the safety switch on his M4 service rifle from “safe” to “semi” while directing traffic at the end of a 12-hour shift. When he returned to the gate house he was about to unload his weapon, but didn’t check to make sure the safety was on. He pulled back the charging handle and accidentally chambered a round. When that happened, he stood up to try to correct it, but pulled the trigger in the process, shooting Lance Cpl. Mark Boterf who was in front of him.
The lead attorney for the government argued Little should get a five-year sentence with forfeiture of all pay and rank and a dishonorable discharge for violating all four of the Marines’ cardinal firearms safety rules. Would a tougher sentence have sent a more powerful message for all Marines and service members?
On the other hand, Little’s defense pointed out he had taken full responsibility for his actions and stressed he will endure a lifetime of guilt and torment for what happened. Since this is an isolated incident, should Little’s punishment be left at that?
This tragic case certainly brings attention to the importance of weapon safety and proper procedures. The Marine’s death was an accident, but it could have easily been prevented had Little not been messing around with his gun. Are some service members becoming too comfortable with carrying such powerful weapons that they forget safety measures?
What can be done to prevent these tragedies from happening? What are some mistakes you’ve seen fellow service members make with their firearms that go against proper safety measures?
Camp Lejeune
Marine Corps
Safety
Firearms and Guns
Command Post
Posted 11 y ago
Responses: 76
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I don't think we need to "crack down" over a single incident of someone ignoring their training. What proposed additional training will stop a dumb person from making a stupid mistake?
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This sort of incident is exactly what leads to policies like the blanket ban on an Armed "Armed Forces" this is why we have to turn our weapons into an armory, why federal law prohibits us from carrying our arms on our own bases. This policy opens us up to attack from active shooters and from "lone wolf" threats. I'm interested in whether anyone has crunched comparison data on NDs for the military vs police forces. Anyone who can help out with that it would be much appreciated. I think we NEED to change policy to allow more of our "Armed Forces" to be, in fact, armed and capable of the use of force. What do you think? Join the debate on this thread by SSG(P) (Join to see) and let us know what you think. http://www.rallypoint.com/answers/concealed-carry-for-cac-holders?page=1&urlhash=317205#317205
Concealed carry for all current service members (CAC holders)? | RallyPoint
Should uniformed military be allowed to conceal carry any were in the U.S. with a CAC as a license due to increased threats to military personnel?
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Capt Richard I P.
To follow on: this is the outcome of the above concealed carry for CAC holders discussion. Come support the right of the armed forces to be armed!: http://www.rallypoint.com/answers/arm-the-armed-forces
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It is a Negligent Accident. This is called a "Negligent Discharge" and gets you fired from certain units.
I have a question: Why was his M-4 loaded? Because he had a "Brain Fart" and continued passing gas after the round was chambered but accepted full responsibility (Kudos to him) he still took the life of another human being in a Negligent manner. I think that the 2 year sentence is very fair (could have been 5). He can appeal the discharge later.
CARDINAL RULES OF FIREARMS SAFETY:
1) TREAT ALL WEAPONS AS THOUGH THEY WERE LOADED.
2)NEVER POINT THE WEAPON AT ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY.
3)DO NOT PLACE YOUR FINGER ON THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET.
4)ALWAYS BE AWARE OF YOUR TARGET ENVIRONMENT INCLUDING WHAT IS BEHIND, BESIDE, OR IN FRONT OF YOUR TARGET.
Even this Negligent Discharge violated all of these rules. Just Sayin'.
I have a question: Why was his M-4 loaded? Because he had a "Brain Fart" and continued passing gas after the round was chambered but accepted full responsibility (Kudos to him) he still took the life of another human being in a Negligent manner. I think that the 2 year sentence is very fair (could have been 5). He can appeal the discharge later.
CARDINAL RULES OF FIREARMS SAFETY:
1) TREAT ALL WEAPONS AS THOUGH THEY WERE LOADED.
2)NEVER POINT THE WEAPON AT ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY.
3)DO NOT PLACE YOUR FINGER ON THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET.
4)ALWAYS BE AWARE OF YOUR TARGET ENVIRONMENT INCLUDING WHAT IS BEHIND, BESIDE, OR IN FRONT OF YOUR TARGET.
Even this Negligent Discharge violated all of these rules. Just Sayin'.
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CPT James Burkholder
This was a kid who totally screwed up. Stupid, wrong but not criminal in the sense I think of crime. Two years in prison seems right. The Dishonorable Discharge will be a lifelong penalty. Who will hire this guy?
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In this case, it seems like it was pure stupidity and letting one's discipline get lax. Even in combat zones we've had SMs get killed due to this kind of complacency.
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No, we train constantly on firearm safety. You can train everyone until we're dreaming about it, but there's always one that will make that mistake. His punishment was inline with what I've seen in the civilian world and I think that in addition to the loss of a serviceman, it will serve as a reminder to follow firearm safety rules.
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I think the system needs to quit making examples of people. Was he wrong in screwing with his weapon - absolutely. Now he gets to live with knowing he kills his fellow Marine because he was being a dumbass. Should the punishment have been more severe...No amount of jail time, monetary fine, or classification of discharge will outweigh the prison that Marine will have himself in for the rest of his life.
Instead, just like our politicians, the military likes to capitalize on tragedy and not let a single one go to waste. How about instead of roaring loudly over this man's poor judgement after a 12 hour shift, we focus simply on better training, reinforcing standards and the fallen Marine's family? Just a thought...
Speaking of 12 hour shift - why was he on a 12 hour shift? Where was the SOG? Where was someone checking that Marine? Just wondering...
Instead, just like our politicians, the military likes to capitalize on tragedy and not let a single one go to waste. How about instead of roaring loudly over this man's poor judgement after a 12 hour shift, we focus simply on better training, reinforcing standards and the fallen Marine's family? Just a thought...
Speaking of 12 hour shift - why was he on a 12 hour shift? Where was the SOG? Where was someone checking that Marine? Just wondering...
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SFC(P) (Join to see)
SSG Jacob Wiley, how many 12 or 24 hour have you pulled while in the Army? Maybe I am not understanding your point at all on this, please tell me if I am off kilter, but are you saying that there should be no punishment for the Marine who ended the life of the Lance Cpl. Mark Boterf? Please tell me if I am wrong in this assumption of what you are saying.
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SSG Jacob Wiley
SFC(P) (Join to see) yeah - you're wrong. Cool the jets!!
I'm on my 1st cup of coffee...not firing on all eight yet. What I am trying to get at is that instead of arguing what the punishment should be (i.e. should it have been more severe), this instance needs to be used to reinforce standards, safety, etc.
The kid got two years behind bars, reduction to E1 and a dishonorable - and rightly so. His neglect resulted in the death of a fellow Marine. Some are arguing it should have been more jail time, should have been this or that - the point I was attempting to make was that he is being punished for, lack of a better word, an accident. Though gross neglect - it was unintentional. He also gets to live with the guilt and regret of his piss-poor decisions. But people want to scream about more jail time, fines, etc. None will bring the dead Marine back. I think the reinforcement of standards and SOGs/NCOs constantly checking their subordinates will do a lot more to prevent a repeat of this kind of situation than 'making an example' out of this kid. All I am trying to say.
As for your question, when I was lower in rank and in my previous MOS, I pulled countless amounts of guard. However, I never went any lengthy amount of time with out the SOG/SDNCO/CQNCO - whomever - physically making rounds to check on people. Accountability.
I'm on my 1st cup of coffee...not firing on all eight yet. What I am trying to get at is that instead of arguing what the punishment should be (i.e. should it have been more severe), this instance needs to be used to reinforce standards, safety, etc.
The kid got two years behind bars, reduction to E1 and a dishonorable - and rightly so. His neglect resulted in the death of a fellow Marine. Some are arguing it should have been more jail time, should have been this or that - the point I was attempting to make was that he is being punished for, lack of a better word, an accident. Though gross neglect - it was unintentional. He also gets to live with the guilt and regret of his piss-poor decisions. But people want to scream about more jail time, fines, etc. None will bring the dead Marine back. I think the reinforcement of standards and SOGs/NCOs constantly checking their subordinates will do a lot more to prevent a repeat of this kind of situation than 'making an example' out of this kid. All I am trying to say.
As for your question, when I was lower in rank and in my previous MOS, I pulled countless amounts of guard. However, I never went any lengthy amount of time with out the SOG/SDNCO/CQNCO - whomever - physically making rounds to check on people. Accountability.
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SFC(P) (Join to see)
SSG Jacob Wiley, I was sure I was wrong with my assumption.
I do agree that we should open this up to more training for Soldiers, Marines, Airmen, Sailors, and Coast Guardsmen. I'm sure that there will be a safety stand down for these Marines in the near future. In reading what you have said I do agree that this can be used as training, however, as I said in my previous post, this Marine, as well as the rest of us, have been taught over and over again about weapon safety. His actions are inexcusable.
I do agree that we should open this up to more training for Soldiers, Marines, Airmen, Sailors, and Coast Guardsmen. I'm sure that there will be a safety stand down for these Marines in the near future. In reading what you have said I do agree that this can be used as training, however, as I said in my previous post, this Marine, as well as the rest of us, have been taught over and over again about weapon safety. His actions are inexcusable.
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The reality is, humans make mistakes, sometimes though lack of training, sometimes though lack of attention to detail and sometimes though neglect.
In 2010-2011 I processed more than 110 ND's from four different nations SM's, several of those were injury inducing. two caused death. Only a few were caused though intentional, willful negligence. None were accidents all were negligent discharges. All were mistakes a of a human that caused an event.
Identify the proximate cause, apply appropriate and direct corrective action that specifically addresses the event causing action and move on. No hand wringing needed, no deep reflection.. A Human made a mistake, address it and get back to work
In 2010-2011 I processed more than 110 ND's from four different nations SM's, several of those were injury inducing. two caused death. Only a few were caused though intentional, willful negligence. None were accidents all were negligent discharges. All were mistakes a of a human that caused an event.
Identify the proximate cause, apply appropriate and direct corrective action that specifically addresses the event causing action and move on. No hand wringing needed, no deep reflection.. A Human made a mistake, address it and get back to work
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The real problem is muscle memory in times of sleep deprivation. He was coming off a 12 hour shift on the gates. An hour before that he was probably in guard mount, hour before that conducting personal hygiene and eating, hour before that PT, so on and so forth... "What do you do at the clearing barrel?" This guy was either under training on basic understanding of how the weapon functions "not being comfortable enough", extremely fatigued or a combination of both... I've seen extremely seasoned highly trained and proficient Warriors with complete understanding of their assigned weapon under sleep deprivation just continue to rack rounds out until it finally clicked that they didn't take the magazine out and while racking the charging handle back, not looking at and in the chamber... Even in you skip the safety step and properly follow the the rest of the steps, your good to go without negligently discharging the weapon. My point is understanding the assigned weapons and practicing creates real muscle memory that ultimately will save your butt in stressful times...
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I think we have so many accidental automobile deaths each year, so are we going to start sentencing soldiers to time behind bars for those accidents? Is anyone surprised a Lance Cpl...private...made a mistake? It is just tragic that outcome of the mistake?
I remember Sergeant getting a flash burn on his face in Light Leaders because he was resting his head on the barrel of an M-60 in the back of a Deuce and a Half...it went over a bump and with enough force to fire the chambered blank. The great part about this story is that it was a blank, his eyes were closed, and he did it to himself.
I remember Sergeant getting a flash burn on his face in Light Leaders because he was resting his head on the barrel of an M-60 in the back of a Deuce and a Half...it went over a bump and with enough force to fire the chambered blank. The great part about this story is that it was a blank, his eyes were closed, and he did it to himself.
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