Posted on Jul 19, 2018
Should We Be Upset At Those Who “Dodged The Draft”?
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I’ve seen a number of posts elsewhere provocatively calling President Trump a “draft dodger” for utilizing three educational deferments and one medical exclusion during Vietnam. I know this can be a sensitive issue for many of us who have served. Many of my military friends seem to want to pile on, and comment with disdain over his actions, and this issue. Some of this is just politics, for others it’s more personal.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
Vietnam War
Vietnam
Donald Trump
Military service
Service
Posted >1 y ago
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No to all draft dodgers, to think you could run and hide like cowards then get to come back to enjoy the freedom that others died for. You got to come back into this great country be thankful for that.
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The modern United States is a bastion of freedom. There are other such countries, but there are plenty of places that are not free. (Example: see the Index of Economic Freedom -> https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking ) Our Bill of Rights goes beyond economic freedom and it makes us a rare place in the world. Outside our borders are threats - on in 1993 and in 2001, we were made very aware of the threat of Islamic terrorism. A few years before the 1993 WTC attack, the threat of cataclysmic nuclear war receded with the fall of the USSR and its enslaved satellite states and annexed "republics". Today, we have a resurgent Russia, nuclear weapons in Pakistan and North Korea (how soon until Iran?), and the (still distant, hopefully never-realized) possibility of a truly adversarial relationship with China.
Within our borders, we are free to live our lives more-or-less as we please so long as we don't harm others or trample on our neighbor's rights. It isn't perfect, but it's very good. In order to preserve what we have - this bastion of freedom - capable citizens must provide the defense. Who else is going to do it? Who else could be trusted to do it?
American servicemembers don't serve a political figure. They don't serve a landed-gentry class. They serve the Constitution. The Constitution is what defines our bastion of freedom.
On the question of draft dodging - when one man honors his responsibility and reports for service, but another man intentionally, purposefully schemes to avoid his responsibility and carries out his scheme, refusing to serve when called on, then the avoider, (the draft dodger), has shirked his responsibility to the bastion of freedom. At the time of the draft, there was a lot of injustice in America. I can see how many people would have been bitter about those injustices. But there isn't much justice to be found among the Nazis, the Imperial Japanese, or the Communists, either.
I didn't have to face the situations that existed in the years of the draft. I can only really know the time in which I've been alive and aware. If, for some reason, we had a new draft today and the cause was within the reasonable parameters of being just, then I would have little patience for anyone who sought to dodge that draft.
Within our borders, we are free to live our lives more-or-less as we please so long as we don't harm others or trample on our neighbor's rights. It isn't perfect, but it's very good. In order to preserve what we have - this bastion of freedom - capable citizens must provide the defense. Who else is going to do it? Who else could be trusted to do it?
American servicemembers don't serve a political figure. They don't serve a landed-gentry class. They serve the Constitution. The Constitution is what defines our bastion of freedom.
On the question of draft dodging - when one man honors his responsibility and reports for service, but another man intentionally, purposefully schemes to avoid his responsibility and carries out his scheme, refusing to serve when called on, then the avoider, (the draft dodger), has shirked his responsibility to the bastion of freedom. At the time of the draft, there was a lot of injustice in America. I can see how many people would have been bitter about those injustices. But there isn't much justice to be found among the Nazis, the Imperial Japanese, or the Communists, either.
I didn't have to face the situations that existed in the years of the draft. I can only really know the time in which I've been alive and aware. If, for some reason, we had a new draft today and the cause was within the reasonable parameters of being just, then I would have little patience for anyone who sought to dodge that draft.
Country Rankings: World & Global Economy Rankings on Economic Freedom
Country rankings based on economic freedom. World and global economy rankings from the Index of Economic Freedom are published by The Heritage Foundation.
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On the whole I disagree with the author's premise that the draft is invonuntary servitude or slavery. A requirement for national service should be apart of our national framework. It serves many purposes: it strengthens our personal sense of duty to country; it provides manpower for not only the military but for non-military functions as well; and it begns a process for young people to begin to understand the concept of personal responsibility and teamwork. I also disagree with not criticizing those who used their money or position to avoid service during Vietnam regardless of how 'legal' their avoidance may have been protrayed.. Calling Donald Trump a 'draft dodger' may not be that far off - his 'bone spurs' may have kept him out of the military and Vietnam, but they didn't keep him off the ski slopes the following weekend, or the golf course for many years to come. Similary, my brother-in-law, a scion from a very wealthy and influential family and one of the finest wingshots and rifle shots I have ever known, was declared 4F based upon his vision, which has since been corrected. Also, George W Bush used his family's influence to go to the head of the iine in the Texas National Guard and further included his wishes to fly the F-102, not in service at the time in Vietnam, as well as checking the box that he would not be willing to serve overseas. These are but a small snippet of how the priveleged were able to avoid service. My solution would be to have everyone serve in some way after they graduate from high school. It is not uncommon throughout the world.
Less than .2% of the nation's population served in Vietnam. Our minority has been overlooked or disparaged over the years, and now we get "Thank you for your service." That falls far short of what we needed when we returned, and far short of what we need today as we age. The promises made by our government as incentive to join the military have been abandoned and/or have severely diminished our benefits, and the Veteran's Administration has proven time and time again that it is more of a stumbling block than our lifeline in our declining years.
The definitions of 'servitude' and 'slavery' bear no resemblance to national service. That this service would not be completely voluntary is immaterial.
Less than .2% of the nation's population served in Vietnam. Our minority has been overlooked or disparaged over the years, and now we get "Thank you for your service." That falls far short of what we needed when we returned, and far short of what we need today as we age. The promises made by our government as incentive to join the military have been abandoned and/or have severely diminished our benefits, and the Veteran's Administration has proven time and time again that it is more of a stumbling block than our lifeline in our declining years.
The definitions of 'servitude' and 'slavery' bear no resemblance to national service. That this service would not be completely voluntary is immaterial.
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Not wanting to get into why we were in Nam in the 1st place. I greatly respect those that served and I respect the opinions of those that thought we should not have been there. But not Jane Fonda, she's a c*nt.
As this pertains to Trump I don't care if he was a dodger. This country needs something different and Trump may not have been the President we wanted but he is the president we needed, Flaws and all.
As this pertains to Trump I don't care if he was a dodger. This country needs something different and Trump may not have been the President we wanted but he is the president we needed, Flaws and all.
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SGT J M Porters
Go to the VA Hospital and ask them? I will say this very few leader go against the wind. I voted for President Trump and I hope he keeps giving them hell!
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I wouldn't say I'm upset, I just don't esteem them as much as I do with those that I've served with in combat. Sylvester Stallion plays a war hero in Rambo's and he's a dodger.. Don't dislike him, but I'll never watch him portray a real hero, which he isn't. People have to live with their decisions, actions and inactions. Do I think less of them, well I try not to judge too much and I'll keep it at that.
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Nothing wrong with dodging the draft. Forced military service isn't freedom also Vietnam was a BS war that we never should have gotten involved in. I would have dodged also if I lived during that time.
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CSM Jim Corrin
It's not a matter of believing in a war. If a war is wrong or unjust, then our elected officials and voters will square that away. I did not believe in the Viet Nam conflict. But I felt that I had an obligation to and believed in my country right or wrong. I dodged the draft....I enlisted... I wish they would reinstate the draft, PFC. There is nothing in our society that forces young people to learn to perform not only as an individual but as part of a team as well. Nothing teaches that better or faster than the military. It is a buy-in to this country that exists no where else in modern society. I contend that it would help build a better breed of civilian when they go back on the block...And this country desperately needs that...
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SPC (Join to see)
CSM Jim Corrin - Forcing people into the military won't change, patriotism is learned not forced. Last thing we need is more people that don't wanna be their. Then people are going to be doing things that would disqualify them for service,
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PO2 Joseph Fast
CSM Jim Corrin - I could never force a man to die for me. I would take volunteers, but I would NEVER take a man away from his family against his will and orphan his children. Those of us who volunteered know what we were doing and nothing gives someone the right to enslave a man and then orphan that man's children.
I don't tend to think about it, but when something happens that makes me think about, I feel bad for the men who said no, but lost their lives anyway.
I know a lot of Communists. They call themselves "liberal" democrats. They have an idea for what would "build a better breed of civilian". It's straight up Communism. Our country doesn't need that even though these filthy Communists believe we do.
I don't tend to think about it, but when something happens that makes me think about, I feel bad for the men who said no, but lost their lives anyway.
I know a lot of Communists. They call themselves "liberal" democrats. They have an idea for what would "build a better breed of civilian". It's straight up Communism. Our country doesn't need that even though these filthy Communists believe we do.
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Be upset why? Would you want someone who makes excuses in the same foxhole as you? You want someone who says send me, give me that rifle.
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Another perspective to consider for those of you who believe there is, or should be some sort of special carve out in our rights for conscription.
First, a few "Givens":
** We all know, as service members that being in the military means a loss of certain rights that those in the civilian world enjoy unhindered. Clearly, those who volunteer for service, know, and understand their rights will be curtailed in certain areas.
** The legal definition of involuntary servitude (and Peony) reads: "A condition of compulsory service or labor performed by one person, against his will, for the benefit of another person due to force, threats, intimidation or other similar means of coercion and compulsion directed against him."
** The 5th Amendment says (in part) the following: “No person shall be.... deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;* ....
** The 13th Amendment says: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.”
** Every service member swore an oath to "support and defend" the Constitution, and to "bear true faith and allegiance to the same."
Given these facts, and understanding that a person, knowingly and willing gives up certain rights is not an issue when one voluntarily enlists, or is commissioned for service. I suspect none of us takes issue with this, as it is done so, voluntarily.
One wonders though, how one's rights can be reduced without this voluntary aspect, through compulsory service? Don't both the 5th, and 13th amendments prohibit the loss of "life, liberty, or property" without due process? Specifically, the 13th amendment requires due process as the result of a conviction of a crime to take one's rights, or freedom.
So, I would respectfully ask, how those who support general, and direct conscription can square that point of view with these amendments, of which we all swore an oath to "support and defend ... against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same."? There are no caveats, or exemptions for conscription in either of these Amendments.
The purpose of this exercise it NOT to question anyone's fealty to their oath, but rather to introduce a perspective to consider on this issue. As always, sincerely interested in your input, perspective, and opinions.
First, a few "Givens":
** We all know, as service members that being in the military means a loss of certain rights that those in the civilian world enjoy unhindered. Clearly, those who volunteer for service, know, and understand their rights will be curtailed in certain areas.
** The legal definition of involuntary servitude (and Peony) reads: "A condition of compulsory service or labor performed by one person, against his will, for the benefit of another person due to force, threats, intimidation or other similar means of coercion and compulsion directed against him."
** The 5th Amendment says (in part) the following: “No person shall be.... deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;* ....
** The 13th Amendment says: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.”
** Every service member swore an oath to "support and defend" the Constitution, and to "bear true faith and allegiance to the same."
Given these facts, and understanding that a person, knowingly and willing gives up certain rights is not an issue when one voluntarily enlists, or is commissioned for service. I suspect none of us takes issue with this, as it is done so, voluntarily.
One wonders though, how one's rights can be reduced without this voluntary aspect, through compulsory service? Don't both the 5th, and 13th amendments prohibit the loss of "life, liberty, or property" without due process? Specifically, the 13th amendment requires due process as the result of a conviction of a crime to take one's rights, or freedom.
So, I would respectfully ask, how those who support general, and direct conscription can square that point of view with these amendments, of which we all swore an oath to "support and defend ... against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same."? There are no caveats, or exemptions for conscription in either of these Amendments.
The purpose of this exercise it NOT to question anyone's fealty to their oath, but rather to introduce a perspective to consider on this issue. As always, sincerely interested in your input, perspective, and opinions.
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LT Thomas Smith
Again, very valid points. I am at loss to argue against such clear and logical analysis.
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My problem with Panty Waist Bill Clinton's draft dodging is he defected to an enemy country when he dodged the draft.
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People were wounded and killed when they had to take their places. No respect here for them at all. I am a product of that generation although I was in high school and college much of the Vietnam time and went in the Army with the post Vietnam generation in 1977. I remember it all very well and will never have any respect for anyone who refused service.
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