Posted on Jul 19, 2018
Should We Be Upset At Those Who “Dodged The Draft”?
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I’ve seen a number of posts elsewhere provocatively calling President Trump a “draft dodger” for utilizing three educational deferments and one medical exclusion during Vietnam. I know this can be a sensitive issue for many of us who have served. Many of my military friends seem to want to pile on, and comment with disdain over his actions, and this issue. Some of this is just politics, for others it’s more personal.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
Vietnam War
Vietnam
Donald Trump
Military service
Service
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 705
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Coming from a long line of military men from great-grandfather who have served in the 1800's against the Spaniards and the French in Puerto Rico to myself and oldest son who served in Iraq and Afghanistan I, disagree and anyone who found a way from serving at the time, I consider a draft dodger now let's talk about Trump who likes to brag about when he was a cadet and how he like to say and I quote lot's of rank, lot's of rank, yet when he graduated from college he submitted for his fifth deferment to Vietnam.
Larry Braunstein and Manny Weinstein who witness wrote 45's medical waiver as a favor to his Queens, NY podiatrist office landlord Fred Trump. I enlisted in 1984 and our biggest issues were draft dodgers and communists leaders and 45 represent both especially when he married his first Russian Czechia wife in 1977 and yes even back then we considered him a communist pig and we all know it has not changed, especially when our Soldiers were bing hunted encouraged by Putin and 45 stilled calles him a good man to include calling Kim Jong-IL a good man but says John Mc Cain's wasn't a real hero. It seems that every time he visited a country that displayed and parade their fire power he wanted to do the same in this country, we know what we have and don't have to brag about it. What really broke my heart was when he incited the 6 Jan with his seditious comments and lied when he talked about being there with them. I'm also a firm believer that any military member active, Reserve, National Guard, and politician who took and OATH to protect this country foreign or domestic should be demoted and stripped of all benefits, rights and privileged we all provided by the United States of America.
American draft evaders who left for Canada and became prominent there include politician Jim Green, gay rights advocate Michael Hendricks, attorney Jeffry House, author Keith Maillard, playwright John Murrell, television personality Eric Nagler, film critic Jay Scott, and musician Jesse Winchester and all celebrities that stayed in the US including Mohamed Ali.
Larry Braunstein and Manny Weinstein who witness wrote 45's medical waiver as a favor to his Queens, NY podiatrist office landlord Fred Trump. I enlisted in 1984 and our biggest issues were draft dodgers and communists leaders and 45 represent both especially when he married his first Russian Czechia wife in 1977 and yes even back then we considered him a communist pig and we all know it has not changed, especially when our Soldiers were bing hunted encouraged by Putin and 45 stilled calles him a good man to include calling Kim Jong-IL a good man but says John Mc Cain's wasn't a real hero. It seems that every time he visited a country that displayed and parade their fire power he wanted to do the same in this country, we know what we have and don't have to brag about it. What really broke my heart was when he incited the 6 Jan with his seditious comments and lied when he talked about being there with them. I'm also a firm believer that any military member active, Reserve, National Guard, and politician who took and OATH to protect this country foreign or domestic should be demoted and stripped of all benefits, rights and privileged we all provided by the United States of America.
American draft evaders who left for Canada and became prominent there include politician Jim Green, gay rights advocate Michael Hendricks, attorney Jeffry House, author Keith Maillard, playwright John Murrell, television personality Eric Nagler, film critic Jay Scott, and musician Jesse Winchester and all celebrities that stayed in the US including Mohamed Ali.
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SSG Gerhard S.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts, experiences, opinions, and media (true, and otherwise) talking points . Respectful regards.
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SPC Steve dePinet
You say "I enlisted in 1984 and our biggest issues were draft dodgers...". In 1984, there was a new Selective Service law, but was registration for that Selective Service really a big problem? We had plenty of volunteers to make up the manning for the existing military at the time, I was just out of my s-x year obligation form my 4 years Active duty and they didn't try very hard to keep me in. Note that I don't disagree with your comment about Communists being a big problem...
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This is a ridiculous question. The draft was over in 1972 and not been restarted. No one on active duty was drafted. There is no plan to restart the draft. I did not agree with anyone who tried to avoid the draft, but respected those who did and faced the consequences. Mohammad Ali lost everything to stand up for his principles, I respect that. I don't respect anyone who fled to Canada, or anywhere else to avoid the draft. However, these people were pardoned by the president and, after all this time, foes it really matter?
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SSG Gerhard S.
Thank you for sharing your position on this issue. Your thoughts are well received. Though, respectfully, I would point out that though I respect Ali's principled stand, it's important to note that he did not "lose everything" He never even made it to jail. He fought his draft in the courts, and eventually won (rightfully so). He was barred from boxing in the US for 3 years. Respectful Regards
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SSG Gerhard S.
What if it's just your politicians who "need" you, and your country would be fine without your forced service,?
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CPL Dennis Bodofsky
Good point well taken Well then to me its always the politicians that start it all. Thats a good point you have, at the time I wouldn't know if the country would be fine. I found out or we found that out later. I love this country enough to go again anytime anyplace. That is just me
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SSG Gerhard S.
CPL Dennis Bodofsky - Well said. The same holds true for me. Having served 22 years in the Service, I will always support this country. I am more, and more wary though, of the motives of our politicians, and of the blood, and treasure, they all too often seem to hold in such low regard.
Respectful regards to you my friend.
Respectful regards to you my friend.
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I’m upset with the politicians who wrote the exclusions, read loopholes, for the draft. Educational deferments, crap. Israeli law requires all men and women to serve for two years. They can go to school after their military service. Switzerland has a universal draft for all males. The country mandates that all serving males take home their weapon home when finished with active duty. Males are automatically place in a reserve status and are required to fire once a month. In Korea, 63-64, one of my duties was to provide security for the Swiss and Swede observers to the UN at their compound at Pan Mun Jom. I ran into one of the Swiss officers, a Captain, when I was later in Vietnam. He didn’t particularly like being a “neutral”. He was taking a tour prior to returning to Switzerland. The “dodgers” played a very flawed system, but isn’t that what the US is all about, “playing the system to one’s advantage”?
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GySgt William Hardy
You cannot compare the drafts of other countries to the USA. While it would help improve our nation greatly, in my opinion, the cost of universal service would be staggering. Under the current laws of the USA, both men and women would be drafted if you believe in equality. Just imagine how many barracks we would need. What would it cost to feed and cloth those draftees. Just the amount of equipment needed for these draftees would bankrupt the nation. Then you have to consider how taxes are generated differently in these countries. You mentioned Switzerland. Yes they have a universal military service. Each member keeps all their military supplies, including weapons of all sorts, in their homes and are assigned tasks in their districts. They have a unique tax system that allows citizens to pay very low taxes because they generate enough revenue from other sources like tourism and banking. This allows them to be able to offer a very nice retirement just like we can get if we served 30 or 40 years in the military. They don't worry about building large military bases since they operate more like a national guard than a standing Army. They have drills rather than daily service. This also reduces their costs.
Remember that a deferment is not an exemption. Once the reason for deferment is concluded, the person can be drafted if he is still needed. One of the major deferments are medical students. Once they graduate, they then go through a short course and become medical officers. Not only do we gain a doctor, but we did not spend money to educate the doctor or other college graduate. Many college grads are offered a choice of 2 years of service as enlisted man or becoming an officer and serving a longer term.
Remember also that medical deferments are granted by a military panel. How do you play that to your advantage?
Deferred people are not the same as dodgers like those that fled to Canada.
Remember that a deferment is not an exemption. Once the reason for deferment is concluded, the person can be drafted if he is still needed. One of the major deferments are medical students. Once they graduate, they then go through a short course and become medical officers. Not only do we gain a doctor, but we did not spend money to educate the doctor or other college graduate. Many college grads are offered a choice of 2 years of service as enlisted man or becoming an officer and serving a longer term.
Remember also that medical deferments are granted by a military panel. How do you play that to your advantage?
Deferred people are not the same as dodgers like those that fled to Canada.
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Folks who absconded to Canada or anywhere else outside the US should not have been allowed back across the border. Let them start their new lives in their new country just like the steerage-class immigrants coming from Europe did here, with only their skills and what they carried with them. One example - musical group Heart. Don't tell me they couldn't have made it just as big north of the border as they did when they returned to the US.
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I don't see a reason to be upset with people that "dodged the draft". Most had their reasons for dodging it. By the time I graduated from high school and attended a couple of years of college the draft was unnecessary. I did, however, join on my own and served 20 years.
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I was eligible for the draft to go to VN. I was low on the lottery and had a 1-Y classification, so I did not volunteer. Later (1976) after they had pulled out I decided that I would like to join as both of my brothers had. I am glad I did even though now I am still fighting with VA over disabilities.
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I am proud of my Uncle Joe Flynn, locomotive engineer of the Milwaukee Road Railroad, who brought many people from the Spokane, Washington rail yard, up to Canada. Plus his son-in-law doing dangerous mining and nuclear engineer work in the USA. Uncle Joe, named for the Chief of the Nez Perce Indian Tribe!
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