Posted on Jul 19, 2018
Should We Be Upset At Those Who “Dodged The Draft”?
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I’ve seen a number of posts elsewhere provocatively calling President Trump a “draft dodger” for utilizing three educational deferments and one medical exclusion during Vietnam. I know this can be a sensitive issue for many of us who have served. Many of my military friends seem to want to pile on, and comment with disdain over his actions, and this issue. Some of this is just politics, for others it’s more personal.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 705
I agree with the guy who wrote this article. You either went to war or went to jail. Was it honorable to be thinking we were defending our constitution? Yes! in reality we were slaughtering people who were centuries behind us in technology, food, natural resources,Etc etc. No I hold no animosity towards draft dodgers." I came home alive and acting like a freakin asshole for the first 15 years post military. I didn't show the respect for the men and women who died thousands of miles a way in a country that was something like 15th century serfdom europe.
Bob Dott
3rd herd
Bob Dott
3rd herd
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Suspended Profile
I don't consider college deferments as avoiding the draft. I don't consider utilizing tax breaks as avoiding taxes. I don't consider joining the Guard or Reserve as avoiding the draft. All were legal. But for those who ran away I have complete disdain.
Showing all the wisdom of an 18 year old in 1966, I enlisted in the Marine Corps. Duh!!
Showing all the wisdom of an 18 year old in 1966, I enlisted in the Marine Corps. Duh!!
That’s all fine and dandy with no moral equivocation about somebody going in your place? My draft board was the infamous Catonsville, MD #33 , where the Berrigan brothers broke in and poured blood on the draft records. Unfortunately, they were 6 months too late for me. Am I the only one that finds it ironic that Bush II used the Air National Guard as a legal way to avoid the Nam and then 30+ years later sends Guardsmen and Reservists on multiple deployments in Iraq? Not what they had in mind, I’m sure. My artillery sergeant (golf Buddy) had an excellent idea. No issue going to Canada, but they cannot obtain civilian employment with the federal government upon return. Lastly, my estimate is that 95+% of elected politicians and 99% of pro athletes have not served in the past 50 years. We all have to live with ourselves after the fact, so to each their own. 1% serve today. The new normal.
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SPC Robert Dott
Lt. Gulley: you hit the nail on the head with your statement in reference to politicians and pro athletes not serving in our military (of course many did and gave their lives). I'm referring now to post Vietnam. Now we honor those who turn their back on our flag (and an American Corporation) pays them handsomely. Further more at this very moment Washington political hacks are able to use our military to surround our Capital building. Just what branch did Pelosi and Schumer serve in?
Bob Dott
3rd Herd
Bob Dott
3rd Herd
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Depends on the war. Vietnam wasnt a war for national survival like WW2 or the Civil War.
Conscription should only be used in such large wars.
I couldnt care less if someone got a deferment.
I do despise those whose political goals change their opinion of it.
Those same people talking about Trump now would have been all about how evil Vietnam was and right Clinton was to do the same thing. And those defending it for Trump would have criticized Clinton.
The fact is a small fraction of people ever see a shot fired in anger and we were never starving for people to fight Vietnam.
So what difference does it make now.
Conscription should only be used in such large wars.
I couldnt care less if someone got a deferment.
I do despise those whose political goals change their opinion of it.
Those same people talking about Trump now would have been all about how evil Vietnam was and right Clinton was to do the same thing. And those defending it for Trump would have criticized Clinton.
The fact is a small fraction of people ever see a shot fired in anger and we were never starving for people to fight Vietnam.
So what difference does it make now.
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My thoughts are simple and quick, the man (Trump) is a pathological liar & he lied to avoid serving, not so much in Vietnam, but to serve at all. I served as a LRP with Co. E, 52nd INF and spent 25 months post Nam in an Army hospital. Am I bitter, in all honesty, yes, but not for the reasons you may think. While I have had 52 years to think about the rationale of us being in Vietnam, my thoughts today are vastly different than when I was a 22 yr old E-5 in the A Shau Valley. Yet my thoughts on Draft Dodgers remain the same, particularly those that malign veterans as this man has done on more than one occasion. He is anything but a Patriot. I would say he should be ashamed of himself, but this malignant narcissist has no shame. So rather than opine as eloquently as you have, I will merely repeat my sentiments, Draft Dodgers are NOT Patriots.
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SSG Gerhard S.
Thank you for your service, and sacrifice, and for sharing your perspective on this issue. For the record, I didn't suggest people who dodged the draft were patriots, only that I don't blame them for avoiding involuntary servitude. Respectful regards My LRP Brother. I served 19 years in LRS, including a tour in Iraq 2004-2005.
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SSG Rochard Gonzales
SSG Seidel, thank you 4 UR Service as well. It was NOT my intention to disparage a fellow Vet & especially a LRP, but the 60’s were a decade like no other, with not only social upheaval, but political games & embarrassment as well. Yes, it is/was ‘involuntary servitude,’ but without it, we could never have mustered an army. While I TOTALLY disagree with our purpose in SE Asia and ‘that crazy Asian war,’ it is not up to us to question these decisions nor disobey our obligation to serve our country, which in many nations is a moral & legal obligation. The person in question, ‘intentionally’ evade the draft and remains the only president in history not to have served his country prior to election in an elected, judicial or military capacity, because he CHOSE otherwise utilizing forged documents & paying a doctor to oblige he devious request. Like you in Iraq, our political leader deceived us in Vietnam and because of that & the wounds I suffered, I lived in denial for nearly 50 years. Sorry, I cannot forgive nor forget.
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SSG Rochard Gonzales
Correct.....except that Trump is the only one of those mentioned of Vietnam era age & he willfully evaded the draft with a phony dr’s excuse. Biden was in Law School & preceded the draft & even if eligible he would have avoided combat duty due to his legal MOS. Obama was too young & again, held a Law degree from Yale so even if there was a draft he would not have been utilized. Have to call as I see it. I am 100% VA Rated disability due to multiple wounds suffered in the beautiful A Shau Valley during Operation Delaware. My fiancee’s father was a Full Bird Colonel in the Natl Guard & I could have utilized that out, but didn’t. I have little to no respect for anyone who evaded (lets be clear here, ‘avoiding’ the draft is different from evading) the draft or didn’t in some way choose to serve. Bill Clinton also evaded the draft, but I’ll cut him some slack as he served in government first as the AG of Arkansas & then as Governor for 20+ years.
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After serving 13 months at Pan Mun Jom Korea, I lucked out and got my "dream sheet" request, Vietnam. Dream sheets were filled out when you were getting "short" and soon to PCS. You could pick three of the listed locations, all were geographical, not specific units. I served with many "US's", draftees during my time. I saw several in both Korea and Vietnam who were so traumatized they literally cried. As to all who dodged the draft, one way or another, time has mellowed me. I really don't care anymore one way or the other. The draft ended in 1976, a long time ago.
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they made a commitment to themselves, should not be allowed to hold any public office whatsoever.
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