Posted on Jul 19, 2018
Should We Be Upset At Those Who “Dodged The Draft”?
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I’ve seen a number of posts elsewhere provocatively calling President Trump a “draft dodger” for utilizing three educational deferments and one medical exclusion during Vietnam. I know this can be a sensitive issue for many of us who have served. Many of my military friends seem to want to pile on, and comment with disdain over his actions, and this issue. Some of this is just politics, for others it’s more personal.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
Vietnam War
Vietnam
Donald Trump
Military service
Service
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 705
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My mother's brother joined the Marine Corps during Vietnam and ran away to Canada. I found out about it when he came up to me at a BBQ and said he was a Marine. When I found out what he did, I explained to him how he was never a Marine. I also explained he was no longer to speak to me. My father tried to enlist in the Marines during Vietnam, the denied him for his missing right eye. My father started a family, bought a house and was going to college and 2.5 years later the Army drafted him. My father told them to pound sand since they didn't want him when he was able to. I think each case should be judged independently, the same as every Veteran. I respect the Korea Vets that fought in the war, and I do mean fought. There was an entitled Vet that was stationed as an AF MP in the rear that said I didn't deserve to be called a Veteran since I was never in a real war. I think that each case is different, mind you I am not saying all are excused. I did my tours, I shed my blood and sweat in the sand box. We wouldn't have ability to distinguish Valor without cowardice.
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All I can say is he used legitimate reasons and asked for deferral. Where as those who just ran away. Some are still wanted to this day. Since that person failed his duty as a citizen, someone else took their place! So should a true “draft dodger” be reviled…what if that replacement was your dad, uncle or other family, how would you feel then?
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SSG Gerhard S.
Thank you for your voluntary service, and for taking the time to comment. Since we're talking in "what if's". What if our lofty politicians didn't send hundreds of thousands of our young men half way around the world to fight in a war that made a lot of people at home rich, only to back out in the end due to political pressure in the homeland? IF that deployment never happened, then we wouldn't be talking about one involuntary servant taking the place of another who died with little choice in the matter.
Respectful regards SFC
Respectful regards SFC
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Here’s my sincere perspective on the issue. It wasn’t the draft dodgers that let down the service members in vietnam. It was the president, his cabinet, congress and the senate. History is repeating itself today . Our government is letting down the people of America. Because of our toxic government I would not send our service members anywhere because like the 13 dead on the tarmac in Afghanistan they would be left with no support from our commander and chief.
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1stSgt Ronald Sheps
I absolutely respect and understand your opinion while not agreeing with it. As long as legal orders are issued, it was never up to us to decide which of those orders were worthy of obeying. Because there could be no other clear line to draw, I would obey all legal orders whether they were repugnant or not.
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I’m curious why you didn’t also tag Clinton and Biden. They both “dodged” the draft too if we’re using Trump’s medical deferment as the standard.
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SSG Gerhard S.
In answer, I wrote this over 3 years ago, when Biden was not Pres., and the criticism at the time was aimed at Pres Trump. The article though, addresses Pres Clinton as well. It's also important to note that I am neither critical, of Pres's Trump, Clinton, or Biden regarding the draft, due to the premise of the article being that I do not blame ANY person who avoids forced servitude.
Thank you for your question. I hope my answer suffices.
Thank you for your question. I hope my answer suffices.
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SPC Ed Kittle
any young person, unless serios tramatic injury, shouldn't be able to get out of the draft for any reason. in the L.A. induction center they would take anyone that could put a breath on a mirror. Anyone with the money could get out of anything, which was proved in a murder trial several years ago.
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I agree. It is a personal decision. I enlisted because I felt it was my duty to protect our Country and the people within it. What others did was their decision. I served in Vietnam for 2 tours and came back to my own people calling us murderers and Baby killers. It made me wonder why I even wanted to protect them from outside forces. Then I remembered it wasn't why I joined to begin with. It was so No war ever came here. I seen what happened to other Countries and there people when war was there. Women and girls became prostitutes and were killed for fun. I fought for freedom here in the greatest Country in the world. For freedom for everyone!!
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SSG Gerhard S.
Thank you for your voluntary service, and for sharing your history, and perspectives.
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I think so & I am. Especially the ones that ran to Canada & then given full immunity. To me that was like spitting on the graves of those who paid the ultimate. What good is the Selective Service if we are going to reward those who dodged their civic duty as citizens of the US? If we let them come back to the US they should have had a mandatory 5 year prison sentence.
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SSG Gerhard S.
SGT Daniel Petitt you've made some good points here. My father in law was flying on B52's during the Linebacker missions, and he recommended a good book on the subject called "The Eleven Days of Christmas." It highlighted the tactical, and strategic errors made by both our politicians, and by our military leadership. You are correct that we had Hanoi ready to surrender.... they were out of missiles at one point.... the same point we took a break in our bombing because of our heavy losses. If we had not taken that break in the bombings, we would have proceded with virtually no losses. The break, however gave the NV the opportunity to resupply, and our costly losses of blood and treasure continued. We know the outcome.
The reality is, our military is controlled by our politicians. Wishing it weren't so doesn't change that fact, and having a draft/ selective service or not, also doesn't change the fact that we don't have a very good record of honoring our commitments to our "allies". One only has to look at our late entry into WWII, our lack of results in Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan, not to mention our forays into Lebanon, Somalia, and the drug war interdictions.
The point is, a draft doesn't make these political failures any better. A draft DOES guarantee those same politicians a handy supply of cheap forced labor to carry out, and then abandon their, often, politically motivated escapades, at an enormous cost of blood and treasure. Even though we've had a volunteer military, and haven't used the draft since Vietnam, the selective service system means the draft is still a viable option to our politicians, and a veil of uncertainty to our young men.
Again, thank you for your thoughtful, polite, and insightful comments. Respectful regards.
The reality is, our military is controlled by our politicians. Wishing it weren't so doesn't change that fact, and having a draft/ selective service or not, also doesn't change the fact that we don't have a very good record of honoring our commitments to our "allies". One only has to look at our late entry into WWII, our lack of results in Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan, not to mention our forays into Lebanon, Somalia, and the drug war interdictions.
The point is, a draft doesn't make these political failures any better. A draft DOES guarantee those same politicians a handy supply of cheap forced labor to carry out, and then abandon their, often, politically motivated escapades, at an enormous cost of blood and treasure. Even though we've had a volunteer military, and haven't used the draft since Vietnam, the selective service system means the draft is still a viable option to our politicians, and a veil of uncertainty to our young men.
Again, thank you for your thoughtful, polite, and insightful comments. Respectful regards.
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SGT Daniel Petitt
True,I agree with everything you say,but when we did get into WW2 we took on most of the burden & we won. I hope we’re not making the same mistake
in Ukraine. I think NATO should stop the Russian aggression before they get a foothold in a sovereign land. Once they get in we’ll never get them out,sanctions or not. Putin will sacrifice his people,it won’t effect him.
Back to Vietnam. I had two weeks left in country when we did the sweep into Cambodia. I figured I wouldn’t be leaving till that operation was over,but the Army got me out on time. The operation lasted a month because we had to stop on a certain parallel. The 1st Cav was a few hundred yards from taking a NVA division base camp & they stopped them because it was on the other side of the line. They tell me that it would have been a cakewalk. What I was getting at was after that sweep there was not even a significant firefight for 6 months in Vietnam. The caches of weapons & rice & ammo were huge. Weapons that hadn’t even been uncrated. If we would have fought the war on the offensive like that operation there would have been a victory for sure. We wouldn’t have stopped at any DMZ.
So every time I hear someone say we lost that war or it was a war we could not win it pisses me off. After all those years training & outfitting the ARVN’s,plus we were still giving them air support,I feel we’d done enough. The same holds true for Afghanistan. There comes a time when the Country involved has to want it bad enough to keep it. We can’t stay & fight their battles forever. You can’t win a war by playing defense,you have to be on the offensive side of things.
SSG Gerhard S.
in Ukraine. I think NATO should stop the Russian aggression before they get a foothold in a sovereign land. Once they get in we’ll never get them out,sanctions or not. Putin will sacrifice his people,it won’t effect him.
Back to Vietnam. I had two weeks left in country when we did the sweep into Cambodia. I figured I wouldn’t be leaving till that operation was over,but the Army got me out on time. The operation lasted a month because we had to stop on a certain parallel. The 1st Cav was a few hundred yards from taking a NVA division base camp & they stopped them because it was on the other side of the line. They tell me that it would have been a cakewalk. What I was getting at was after that sweep there was not even a significant firefight for 6 months in Vietnam. The caches of weapons & rice & ammo were huge. Weapons that hadn’t even been uncrated. If we would have fought the war on the offensive like that operation there would have been a victory for sure. We wouldn’t have stopped at any DMZ.
So every time I hear someone say we lost that war or it was a war we could not win it pisses me off. After all those years training & outfitting the ARVN’s,plus we were still giving them air support,I feel we’d done enough. The same holds true for Afghanistan. There comes a time when the Country involved has to want it bad enough to keep it. We can’t stay & fight their battles forever. You can’t win a war by playing defense,you have to be on the offensive side of things.
SSG Gerhard S.
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SPC Lyle Montgomery
Sgt Daniel Petitt, 5 years is too easy for draft dodgers. how about 20 years in a military prison.
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No - the dodgers have to live with their decision for the rest of their waking days.
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The Draft is the law of the land. If we don't like a law we should work to get it changed or revoked but obey the law until then. If a person disobeys the law he shouid expect legal punishment. If the reasons for avoidance of duty are legal reasons it should not bother others that they were used as long as it is according to the law.
I served in two wars (Korea and Vietnam) with Draftee comrades and we got along fine.
I served in two wars (Korea and Vietnam) with Draftee comrades and we got along fine.
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1SG Leon Espe
If we don't like a law we need to write to our representatives and explain why. That is why we have representatives. We live in a Democratic system where the majority is king.
Sometimes the majority is morally wrong. Slavery was wrong in my estimation but I was not there then. I WAS there when President Truman Integrated the Military in 1950 and I fully agreed with his action at the time. Some of my military comrades did not.
Sometimes the majority is morally wrong. Slavery was wrong in my estimation but I was not there then. I WAS there when President Truman Integrated the Military in 1950 and I fully agreed with his action at the time. Some of my military comrades did not.
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SSG Gerhard S.
1SG Leon Espe it sounds a lot like you'd be in favor of returning escaped slaves back into slavery, that being "the law of the land", and furthermore, in favor of prosecuting those who helped them along their way on the Underground Railroad.
Sadly, consistency regarding the enforcement of "the law of the land" leaves one in a moral pickle.
Don't people have a responsibility to resist immoral laws? You did allude to that, did you not? That we should petition for redress? For the record, those petitions were submitted from the day we became a nation, until we constitutionally abolished slavery following the war between the States. Respectfully, saying you weren't there doesn't mean one can't make a call. Whether "The law of the land" is moral, and just, or not, has no bearing on one's presence, whether it be to race slavery, or any other form of government enforced servitude. Regards.
Sadly, consistency regarding the enforcement of "the law of the land" leaves one in a moral pickle.
Don't people have a responsibility to resist immoral laws? You did allude to that, did you not? That we should petition for redress? For the record, those petitions were submitted from the day we became a nation, until we constitutionally abolished slavery following the war between the States. Respectfully, saying you weren't there doesn't mean one can't make a call. Whether "The law of the land" is moral, and just, or not, has no bearing on one's presence, whether it be to race slavery, or any other form of government enforced servitude. Regards.
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1SG Leon Espe
I believe that slavery was accepted world wide as a necessary evil back in the slave days. The United States was one of the first countries in the world to work at getting rid of slavery. I am against the placing of blame for slavery upon people who never owned slaves by people who were never slaves themselves. I am pretty sure my Viking ancestors some where along the line held slaves. Since it was acceptable back then it would be unreasonable to place any blame on their descendents. I do take responsibility for my own actions in my past and present.
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I volunteered for the draft in 1969 after graduating high school. The Army was my choice. I did 2 years and was glad to do it. I served with regular army and draftees and the draftees were as good as or better than the RA guys I don't have much use for draft dodgers. They don't deserve respect. I'm glad that we don't have the draft now, but if it is ever resurected, There should be absolutely no deferments whatsoever. I have no problems for those who were never called, but those who went to Canada are cowards and should never be welcomed back in the us under penalty of war.
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People commenting can't even stay on topic and instead turn it into a platform for anyone and everyone who wants to voice their political opinions no matter how spurious. Rally Point has turned into FB and every other social media platform contributing to the disinformation and divisiveness pervasive in this country.
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CW4 Jay Ossiander
Do you think this website doesn't gather data? I was hoping this forum would not be just another version of FB, people posting misinformation and conspiracy theories not to mention making antagonistic, insulting comments towards each other. I often wonder how many of the people commenting have legitimate profiles.
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