Posted on Jul 19, 2018
Should We Be Upset At Those Who “Dodged The Draft”?
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I’ve seen a number of posts elsewhere provocatively calling President Trump a “draft dodger” for utilizing three educational deferments and one medical exclusion during Vietnam. I know this can be a sensitive issue for many of us who have served. Many of my military friends seem to want to pile on, and comment with disdain over his actions, and this issue. Some of this is just politics, for others it’s more personal.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
Vietnam War
Vietnam
Donald Trump
Military service
Service
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 705
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No. It’s better that they avoided serving all together rather than running away on the battlefield.
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Thank you for the question and well stated thoughts on it.
My opinion is that a draft is the ultimate insult to freedom; what could be less free than being forced from your home, your plans for your future taken from you, your choices stolen from you, and the real possibility of all the remaining years of your life being taken from you? How is that better than loading Africans on a ship and bringing them here to work against their will? In only one way; it is only for a limited time, assuming you survive.
And what is the logic of being angry with someone that did not want to go to some foreign jungle and risk dying there and so used the options that were available to them to not have to do that? The real problem is that the options existed, but not equally for everyone. Why shouldn't it have been simply 'you're drafted, you go'?
Shouldn't you be equally angry with people that didn't volunteer to go? Didn't their country need their service too? Didn't they also take advantage of an option to not have to go? How is that different than someone who's number came up but found an option not to go? Because a ball bounced one way their life and their honor is not in question?
My opinion is that a draft is the ultimate insult to freedom; what could be less free than being forced from your home, your plans for your future taken from you, your choices stolen from you, and the real possibility of all the remaining years of your life being taken from you? How is that better than loading Africans on a ship and bringing them here to work against their will? In only one way; it is only for a limited time, assuming you survive.
And what is the logic of being angry with someone that did not want to go to some foreign jungle and risk dying there and so used the options that were available to them to not have to do that? The real problem is that the options existed, but not equally for everyone. Why shouldn't it have been simply 'you're drafted, you go'?
Shouldn't you be equally angry with people that didn't volunteer to go? Didn't their country need their service too? Didn't they also take advantage of an option to not have to go? How is that different than someone who's number came up but found an option not to go? Because a ball bounced one way their life and their honor is not in question?
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When I was a teen, I agreed with the draft. There was no draft when I went in the NAVY. I ran into too many people who would try to light a match twice. If you want a good military, double all benefits and pay. Be honest about duty periods, etc.
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It is very nice to see another voice of reason. You already stated the reasons, but I'll repeat the most important facts.
1. It's Slavery where we get those we enslaved killed and we abolished slavery.
2. We use it on pointless wars. We enslave people and get them killed for wars that aren't important to the American people.
3. America has too many patriots, if there is a war that requires the draft, we won't require it because we have enough patriots to fill those ranks.
Again, you have already said everything I did, I simply highlighted what I believe to be the 3 biggest reasons why we should do away with selective service.
1. It's Slavery where we get those we enslaved killed and we abolished slavery.
2. We use it on pointless wars. We enslave people and get them killed for wars that aren't important to the American people.
3. America has too many patriots, if there is a war that requires the draft, we won't require it because we have enough patriots to fill those ranks.
Again, you have already said everything I did, I simply highlighted what I believe to be the 3 biggest reasons why we should do away with selective service.
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It cost Ford the election in 1976 when he pardoned all draft dodgers, but it was the right thing to do to begin to heal the country.
If we condemn one person, shouldn't we condemn them all regardless of party affiliation.
If we condemn one person, shouldn't we condemn them all regardless of party affiliation.
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Guys, you are digging a hole that a body bag will not fill. It will be so deep and narrow until once you are in you can not get out. Let me say I appreciate your service of all those who went or served on activated duty. The class before me in AIT Aberdeen Proving Grounds was deployed to Vietnam. When we graduated we were scheduled to go to Vietnam but then we were reassigned to Big Red 1 Fort Riley Kansas. I then signed up to go AirBorn at Fort Benning Ga. but did not get accepted. I did a training mission in Germany and came back to the USA. I always thought the way to the White House was through Military Service.
It takes a special class of person to serve in the military. Some people are just not cut out for it. Join the military wife club. It takes a special woman to be a military wife as many of you know.
So whether they took advantage of the waiver, or served or just did as Muhammad Ali did by refusing to serve on religious ground. That is their right as US citizens.
That is one of the things that makes America so great. We have one of the best or we have The Best all Voluntary Amry in the world. The next time you think you have a right to criticized or refect on a fellow soldier just remember he or she does not have to be here. Guys, there is no one who does what you all do for what you get paid and what you sacrifice in the world. I will always have your back!
And remember we do this in whatever capacity that we can. Next time you are in the PX remember they are serving because they are there for you.
It takes a special class of person to serve in the military. Some people are just not cut out for it. Join the military wife club. It takes a special woman to be a military wife as many of you know.
So whether they took advantage of the waiver, or served or just did as Muhammad Ali did by refusing to serve on religious ground. That is their right as US citizens.
That is one of the things that makes America so great. We have one of the best or we have The Best all Voluntary Amry in the world. The next time you think you have a right to criticized or refect on a fellow soldier just remember he or she does not have to be here. Guys, there is no one who does what you all do for what you get paid and what you sacrifice in the world. I will always have your back!
And remember we do this in whatever capacity that we can. Next time you are in the PX remember they are serving because they are there for you.
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Hell I've always held that I went so that others wouldn't have to!
But then on the other hand I have resented those hid or fled. My best friend of my school years was what you could call a 'Refusenik'. He refused to go and actually did time in prison (since pardoned). I have always respected those who took their stand and paid the price all without apology. As for those who could and did 'work the System' to use the law as written to avoid the Draft, more power to 'em. That is how it's supposed to work.
But then on the other hand I have resented those hid or fled. My best friend of my school years was what you could call a 'Refusenik'. He refused to go and actually did time in prison (since pardoned). I have always respected those who took their stand and paid the price all without apology. As for those who could and did 'work the System' to use the law as written to avoid the Draft, more power to 'em. That is how it's supposed to work.
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I would agree, but would add that I served to preserve the freedom of others to make the choice to serve or not to serve. I hold no resentment toward those that did not serve. US Navy 67-71.
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I'm 48 next month.. I was 2 when the last draft ended.. Why would I be upset?
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