Posted on Jan 27, 2019
A better, safer, less expensive alternative to the new Army PT test?
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Pretty good article regarding the ARMYs move to the ACFT. Curious what everyone’s opinions are on this and whether you think it will be actually effective?
A better, safer, less expensive alternative to the new Army PT test?
Posted from armytimes.com
APFT
ACFT
Fitness
Injuries
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 9
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I do think there has to be some sort of compromise/alternative event. Coming out of a prior service Army Reserve environment, I just can't see the 6-part ACFT getting done for a number of reasons, at least for the Guard and Reserve components.
(1) Cost/Logistics - Just to field all of the equipment and test an entire battalion would take all weekend. The ACFT would take multiple drill weekends to stagger by company, platoon, etc. just to be able to get other training done. It would also require more NCO and Officer graders to be up to speed and certified on new testing admin.
(2) Risk of Injury - Like the article mentions, if RC and Guard units already struggle to maintain current APFT standards, how will they properly train their soldiers to acclimate to the new standard? There would have to be a 1-2 year commitment toward training soldiers how to properly execute new lifts to where they don't wreck their bodies.
To be clear, I don't think the current APFT truly tests combat fitness, and I am all for increased physical readiness for combat. I agree with the article in terms of something like a ruck event with weighted pack over distance or the new sprint event could be modified without the sleds. Use the sprint, shuttle, and farmer carry with a vest on. In terms of muscular endurance I'd stick with pushups or dips. When we deployed, the long patrols in full battle rattle are what tested your endurance the most, so you need to simulate that in your APFT.
(1) Cost/Logistics - Just to field all of the equipment and test an entire battalion would take all weekend. The ACFT would take multiple drill weekends to stagger by company, platoon, etc. just to be able to get other training done. It would also require more NCO and Officer graders to be up to speed and certified on new testing admin.
(2) Risk of Injury - Like the article mentions, if RC and Guard units already struggle to maintain current APFT standards, how will they properly train their soldiers to acclimate to the new standard? There would have to be a 1-2 year commitment toward training soldiers how to properly execute new lifts to where they don't wreck their bodies.
To be clear, I don't think the current APFT truly tests combat fitness, and I am all for increased physical readiness for combat. I agree with the article in terms of something like a ruck event with weighted pack over distance or the new sprint event could be modified without the sleds. Use the sprint, shuttle, and farmer carry with a vest on. In terms of muscular endurance I'd stick with pushups or dips. When we deployed, the long patrols in full battle rattle are what tested your endurance the most, so you need to simulate that in your APFT.
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SMSgt Thor Merich
You nailed it on the head. The Air Force is considering a similar program as the Army. My arguments against are essentially the same as yours.
The issue I have is that it may unnecessary for most jobs. The need for high fitness levels of combat troops is a no brainer. But what about the majority of the Army that isn’t in a combat role? I don’t think that they need to meet the same fitness level. This new test would be cumbersome and very time consuming.
The issue I have is that it may unnecessary for most jobs. The need for high fitness levels of combat troops is a no brainer. But what about the majority of the Army that isn’t in a combat role? I don’t think that they need to meet the same fitness level. This new test would be cumbersome and very time consuming.
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PO2 (Join to see)
^^^ Yeah I thought they were toying around with an occupational fitness test for recruits at some point, and I figure there should be a bit of a sliding scale. I guess that the OPAT or whatever it was at least weeds out the individuals not ready to be infantry or something like that.
Granted, we still had support MOS soldiers out on the COPs downrange, and if I got shot I'd still hope they had the ability to get me to the doc. Lol. There has to be a baseline level of fitness, and I'm all for active duty Army, Marines, Navy, Air Force and Coasties needing to be at peak fitness to be ready for anything. I just don't know if things like this medicine ball toss or hex deadlift or knee tuck truly mirror combat situations enough to justify the injuries that untrained Reservists and Guard are likely to face with limited fitness oversight.
Granted, we still had support MOS soldiers out on the COPs downrange, and if I got shot I'd still hope they had the ability to get me to the doc. Lol. There has to be a baseline level of fitness, and I'm all for active duty Army, Marines, Navy, Air Force and Coasties needing to be at peak fitness to be ready for anything. I just don't know if things like this medicine ball toss or hex deadlift or knee tuck truly mirror combat situations enough to justify the injuries that untrained Reservists and Guard are likely to face with limited fitness oversight.
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PO2 (Join to see)
Capt Daniel Goodman - That aerobic fitness would translate to better scores for the ACFT in the areas like the 25 meter sprint events, 2 mile run, knee tuck and pushups. Active components can carve out the daily / weekly time to train and condition soldiers and BCT/AIT for all components can give them a baseline. I just don't see how you enforce it at the Reserve / Guard level.
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Capt Daniel Goodman
I follow, that was why I'd suggested requiring a mix of Army Combatives and USMC MCMAP training for virtually all personnel, period, flat out, forever, active duty (AD), Guard, Reserve, AGR, Guard Tech, Reserve Tech, all of it, incl requiring actual exams by qualified instructors, totally integrate martial arts from such a mix of both svc martial art programs permanently into virtually all svcs, no exceptions, other than legitimate, documented, clinical reasons...obviously, those are purely my own thoughts, though I entirely perceive your logic, about sprints, runs, and various calisthenics and body strength demonstration exercises, please understand, it was !merely an idea, one I certainly wouldn't expect would be implemented, by any means, simply due to a suggestion on my part, of course, I entirely realize that, by all means....
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Great article. The author brought up all the issues that I have with the ACFT and similar Air Force proposal. Too time consuming, too expensive, and too many potential injuries.
My solution is to have different PT tests for different MOS’ or AFPC’s. Since most folks in the Army are not combat, they don’t need to maintain the same fitness level as a 11B.
My solution is to have different PT tests for different MOS’ or AFPC’s. Since most folks in the Army are not combat, they don’t need to maintain the same fitness level as a 11B.
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
I see where you are going with this, but you end up with the issue of "What is the standard of a person with a CS/CSS MOS serving in a CA unit?"
I use myself as an example. I was an Intel Analyst, in a Grunt BN (my Section/Platoon was Scout/Snipers who were all 03xx). Would I maintain 02xx standards or 03xx standards? What about the 01xx down the hall? All the people who are "occasionally" required to perform the same functions."
A unit is not 100% any one MOS (at least in the USMC). I assume the Army has the same feature.
I use myself as an example. I was an Intel Analyst, in a Grunt BN (my Section/Platoon was Scout/Snipers who were all 03xx). Would I maintain 02xx standards or 03xx standards? What about the 01xx down the hall? All the people who are "occasionally" required to perform the same functions."
A unit is not 100% any one MOS (at least in the USMC). I assume the Army has the same feature.
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I have one simple question.... Why didn't they just adopt and modify the USMC CFT?
Not because I'm a Marine, but because it's an existing template that we can objectively say is safer and less expensive than the proposal? (It might be better as well based on that comparison).
Having followed these changes (as part of my PhD research), I am wondering why the ACFT made it this far. It's complex, potentially dangerous, and time-consuming. It is everything we don't want in a Fitness Test.
Not because I'm a Marine, but because it's an existing template that we can objectively say is safer and less expensive than the proposal? (It might be better as well based on that comparison).
Having followed these changes (as part of my PhD research), I am wondering why the ACFT made it this far. It's complex, potentially dangerous, and time-consuming. It is everything we don't want in a Fitness Test.
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Capt Daniel Goodman
For the first time ever since the Air Force Institute of Technology opened it's doors 95 years ago, a Non-Commissioned Officer has earned a PhD. The kicker? ...
https://youtu.be/-iBvq0LMLQQ
I was wrong, this video is about an Army MSgt allowed to go to AFIT for his PhD, look at it...also, elaborate for me, if you would, exactly what level of training you've had in common systems, IT, cyber, certifications, degrees, svc schools, so far as you'd care to say, I'd only be curious for the simple reason that, if he could be allowed, I realize he's MSgt, however, you might also petition for svc funding for your PhD/DBA, all the more as the dissertation is so overtly svc related, just a thought of course, I'd be eager to know exactly how much STEM coursework exposure you've had, if only to try to suggest other possible approaches for you, I have an interest in such career/educ circumstances as yours....
I was wrong, this video is about an Army MSgt allowed to go to AFIT for his PhD, look at it...also, elaborate for me, if you would, exactly what level of training you've had in common systems, IT, cyber, certifications, degrees, svc schools, so far as you'd care to say, I'd only be curious for the simple reason that, if he could be allowed, I realize he's MSgt, however, you might also petition for svc funding for your PhD/DBA, all the more as the dissertation is so overtly svc related, just a thought of course, I'd be eager to know exactly how much STEM coursework exposure you've had, if only to try to suggest other possible approaches for you, I have an interest in such career/educ circumstances as yours....
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
Capt Daniel Goodman - I've got no problem doing a little more research regarding the various commissioning avenues. I've looked into USPHS and NOAA before. My degrees don't align with their requirements though, which puts me back into the normal Armed Forces categories. Unfortunately that conflicts with my own disability rating (only 10%) and creates other challenges. Basically why take me over someone with no rating at all.
As for training, certs, and misc, I "was" PME complete through SSgt (USMC), fully MOS qualed for Intel, trained on the IOS/IAS - C2PC platforms (through circa 2002, I was actually the USMC instructor). There's a few other misc schools (no certs) and random training as it applied with the C4I umbrella.
As for STEM... it can best be described as "cursory" or "tangential." MY discipline is (business based) Science, but it's more applied science (using that phrase very loosely) than functional science. The best way I can describe it would be "Systems Interpretation and Analysis" (where you treat organizations as complex systems or ecosystems). I don't have the comprehensive background of a true STEM guy, but (just) enough education to understand most of the works (usually with a bit of help).
With the the Leadership and Physical Fitness aspect, I am looking at these as distinct systems under the greater Military ecosystem. There is no doubt that they interact (I can prove this through explicitly stated Doctrine), but the question arises of whether they are causal or merely correlated, and if only correlated, how are the current incentive policies influencing (beneficially or detrimentally) the relationship between the two and the greater ecosystem as a whole.
As for training, certs, and misc, I "was" PME complete through SSgt (USMC), fully MOS qualed for Intel, trained on the IOS/IAS - C2PC platforms (through circa 2002, I was actually the USMC instructor). There's a few other misc schools (no certs) and random training as it applied with the C4I umbrella.
As for STEM... it can best be described as "cursory" or "tangential." MY discipline is (business based) Science, but it's more applied science (using that phrase very loosely) than functional science. The best way I can describe it would be "Systems Interpretation and Analysis" (where you treat organizations as complex systems or ecosystems). I don't have the comprehensive background of a true STEM guy, but (just) enough education to understand most of the works (usually with a bit of help).
With the the Leadership and Physical Fitness aspect, I am looking at these as distinct systems under the greater Military ecosystem. There is no doubt that they interact (I can prove this through explicitly stated Doctrine), but the question arises of whether they are causal or merely correlated, and if only correlated, how are the current incentive policies influencing (beneficially or detrimentally) the relationship between the two and the greater ecosystem as a whole.
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Capt Daniel Goodman
I follow, as I'd said, those were just thoughts, if I can suggest anything else for the dissertation, obv just tell !e, and I can of course try, certainly....
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
Capt Daniel Goodman - They're much appreciated. As I've been working on this, I've found that new avenues have opened up with all manner of approaches. "kill your darlings" as they say.
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