Posted on Jan 25, 2023
America, we have a problem. People aren't feeling engaged with their work
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https://www.npr.org/2023/01/25/ [login to see] /employee-engagement-gallup-survey-workers-hybrid-remote
I'm not surprised we are having so many problems with this. For us folks of a certain age, the income inequality and slow destruction of the American dream has been a frog in the pot of heating water type scenario. It was happening over enough time where we got used to the changes.
But for young people, they see the situation all at once and for what it has become. A game that has now been rigged to hold most people at the financial position they grew up in. Upward mobility has been destroyed and those who are born to wealth are the few in a position to maintain and grow it. Why would people feel "engaged" or excited to participate in such a system?
I'm not surprised we are having so many problems with this. For us folks of a certain age, the income inequality and slow destruction of the American dream has been a frog in the pot of heating water type scenario. It was happening over enough time where we got used to the changes.
But for young people, they see the situation all at once and for what it has become. A game that has now been rigged to hold most people at the financial position they grew up in. Upward mobility has been destroyed and those who are born to wealth are the few in a position to maintain and grow it. Why would people feel "engaged" or excited to participate in such a system?
America, we have a problem. People aren't feeling engaged with their work
Posted from npr.org
Economy
Working
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 1
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Income inequality was no part of this story. You are just injecting the latest bogeyman.
Did you actually read the article? It is about workplace culture and team management. Which is important across all income streams.
Oh, and your premise about the destruction of upward mobility is bogus, too. Upward mobility is more accessible than ever - for people who are willing to work for it. Do you really think upward mobility was a thing before WWII?
Both of my parents grew up lower class. They got married on the edge of lower class and middle class. They raised their three children in lower- middle to central- middle class (as time went on). My brother is on the border between middle and upper classes. I am just over the threshold and am upper class, although that is in part due to living in a low cost area. And my sister is upper middle class. Her family income would be upper class most locations, but she lives in a high cost area.
All three of us worked hard. All three of us married a hard worker. None of us had multiple children from multiple partners that we couldn't afford. All of us avoided debt when possible and paid down debt aggressively when we had it.
Upward mobility is alive and well - for those who want it.
Did you actually read the article? It is about workplace culture and team management. Which is important across all income streams.
Oh, and your premise about the destruction of upward mobility is bogus, too. Upward mobility is more accessible than ever - for people who are willing to work for it. Do you really think upward mobility was a thing before WWII?
Both of my parents grew up lower class. They got married on the edge of lower class and middle class. They raised their three children in lower- middle to central- middle class (as time went on). My brother is on the border between middle and upper classes. I am just over the threshold and am upper class, although that is in part due to living in a low cost area. And my sister is upper middle class. Her family income would be upper class most locations, but she lives in a high cost area.
All three of us worked hard. All three of us married a hard worker. None of us had multiple children from multiple partners that we couldn't afford. All of us avoided debt when possible and paid down debt aggressively when we had it.
Upward mobility is alive and well - for those who want it.
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SFC Casey O'Mally
SPC Kevin Ford And all of these ignore a couple of basic facts, at least as they are relevant to this discussion.
1) They focus on professional careers. The overwhelming majority of whom are on the top half of the pay scale already.
But the discussion is about how the bottom half can increase pay. Moving fromMcDonald's to Burger King to Arby's and then back to McDonald's isn't going to increase pay. Staying at McDonald's and working up to be a crew trainer then assistant manager, and, eventually GM will.
2) Self-selection bias. How many folks are going to quit their current known job and jump ship to an unknown for a pay CUT? Or even for the SAME pay? Now conpare those who switch with those who had the OPPORTINITY to switch for a pay raise with those who stayed. Particularly with those who stayed for a promotion, as often those switches come with promotions which is part of the reason for the raise.
Every single one of your articles is anecdotal based opinion. Show me ACTUAL research, involving a no-shit control group, blind selection, etc. There isn't any because the factors that involve staying, leaving, hiring, and promotions are too complex.
You say leaving causes pay raises at new companies. I say pay raises at new companies causes leaving.
Since you like thought experiment ts, let's try this one.
Twitter just MASSIVELY cut its work force. How many of those former Twitter employees landed a new job within a couple of weeks for MORE pay? How many landed a job within a couple of weeks for the same or less? And how many are still unemployed?
Yes, taking a new job for more money obviously makes sense most of the time. But, you (and these articles) present the situation as if that is always an option. It isn't. Especially at the lower income jobs, which was the entire purpose of the discussion in the first place. For those who it *is* an option, it is only an option if they have worked hard and: built a reputation; have quantifiable achievements; earned recommendations from previous employers; have built a client-base they can bring with them. The shitbags can't job hop for more money, at least not for long.
Which brings me back to... hard work.
As far as the employment scene, since I moved out of my parent's house at the age of 17, there is exactly one week I have not had either paycheck or worker's comp coming in. That was the week before I shipped to basic. And that was actually only six days.
I got my civilian job post-Army while still on terminal leave. I have been consistently working 1-3 jobs since, with the exception of when I was shot on the job. Then I was at home on worker's comp for about 2 months. At which time I ended worker's comp early to re-enter the work force, even though my shoulder was still in pieces.
I have extensive and recent history with job searches ND employment. And I am actively searching for my next job now. I will be leaving my current employment after two years.
But the big difference is that I promised them two years when I got hired, and everyone understood that. I am no longer young, and this was never planned to be a career. Also, I am retired and disabled; this job is extra income, not needed income. If I were 20-something, I would be sticking around, and I would be making double what I do now in about 5 years. And in about another 10 after that, it would be doubled again.
Because I work my butt off, and I am dedicated to what I do.
1) They focus on professional careers. The overwhelming majority of whom are on the top half of the pay scale already.
But the discussion is about how the bottom half can increase pay. Moving fromMcDonald's to Burger King to Arby's and then back to McDonald's isn't going to increase pay. Staying at McDonald's and working up to be a crew trainer then assistant manager, and, eventually GM will.
2) Self-selection bias. How many folks are going to quit their current known job and jump ship to an unknown for a pay CUT? Or even for the SAME pay? Now conpare those who switch with those who had the OPPORTINITY to switch for a pay raise with those who stayed. Particularly with those who stayed for a promotion, as often those switches come with promotions which is part of the reason for the raise.
Every single one of your articles is anecdotal based opinion. Show me ACTUAL research, involving a no-shit control group, blind selection, etc. There isn't any because the factors that involve staying, leaving, hiring, and promotions are too complex.
You say leaving causes pay raises at new companies. I say pay raises at new companies causes leaving.
Since you like thought experiment ts, let's try this one.
Twitter just MASSIVELY cut its work force. How many of those former Twitter employees landed a new job within a couple of weeks for MORE pay? How many landed a job within a couple of weeks for the same or less? And how many are still unemployed?
Yes, taking a new job for more money obviously makes sense most of the time. But, you (and these articles) present the situation as if that is always an option. It isn't. Especially at the lower income jobs, which was the entire purpose of the discussion in the first place. For those who it *is* an option, it is only an option if they have worked hard and: built a reputation; have quantifiable achievements; earned recommendations from previous employers; have built a client-base they can bring with them. The shitbags can't job hop for more money, at least not for long.
Which brings me back to... hard work.
As far as the employment scene, since I moved out of my parent's house at the age of 17, there is exactly one week I have not had either paycheck or worker's comp coming in. That was the week before I shipped to basic. And that was actually only six days.
I got my civilian job post-Army while still on terminal leave. I have been consistently working 1-3 jobs since, with the exception of when I was shot on the job. Then I was at home on worker's comp for about 2 months. At which time I ended worker's comp early to re-enter the work force, even though my shoulder was still in pieces.
I have extensive and recent history with job searches ND employment. And I am actively searching for my next job now. I will be leaving my current employment after two years.
But the big difference is that I promised them two years when I got hired, and everyone understood that. I am no longer young, and this was never planned to be a career. Also, I am retired and disabled; this job is extra income, not needed income. If I were 20-something, I would be sticking around, and I would be making double what I do now in about 5 years. And in about another 10 after that, it would be doubled again.
Because I work my butt off, and I am dedicated to what I do.
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SPC Kevin Ford
SFC Casey O'Mally -
OK, so I take it you have conceded that point on why people don't feel loyalty due to pay reasons. Let's move on.
"But the discussion is about how the bottom half can increase pay. Moving from McDonald's to Burger King to Arby's and then back to McDonald's isn't going to increase pay. Staying at McDonald's and working up to be a crew trainer then assistant manager, and, eventually GM will."
it isn't any better there. In those cases the fast food workers are just giving up.
https://www.businessinsider.com/mcdonalds-subway-struggle-to-find-workers-forcing-changes-2021-4
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/11/how-mcdonalds-and-wendys-are-dealing-with-fast-food-labor-shortages.html
https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/21/business/restaurant-labor-shortage/index.html
I can keep going with these. No, they didn't move from McDonalds to Burger King. That's what they used to do when they still had a glimmer of hope the system was working for them. Instead they stopped working altogether. A partial societal work stoppage. Exactly the problem I was warning about in my original post.
"2) Self-selection bias. How many folks are going to quit their current known job and jump ship to an unknown for a pay CUT? Or even for the SAME pay? Now conpare those who switch with those who had the OPPORTINITY to switch for a pay raise with those who stayed. Particularly with those who stayed for a promotion, as often those switches come with promotions which is part of the reason for the raise."
Once again you are building your argument on an assumption, one that isn't true. You are assuming these people are going to continue to work instead of saying F it, I'm not doing this.
https://onlabor.org/antiwork-the-digital-praise-of-idleness/
https://www.businessinsider.com/how-gen-z-is-changing-work-most-pro-labor-generation-2022-11
https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/hr-topics/employee-relations/pages/gen-z-worries-about-work-skills.aspx#:~:text=People%20ages%2016%20to%2025%2C%20commonly%20known%20as,they%20say%20they%20prefer%20face-to-face%20interactions%20at%20work.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackkelly/2021/12/30/lying-flat-antiwork-and-the-great-resignation-spreads-worldwide-as-young-people-protest-against-system/?sh=3adbfbe953b7
There is an interesting term that is gaining traction behind quiet quitting, idlers. The idler movement, led primarily by young people, are people who are refusing to participate in the work system in general and are just doing odd jobs and whatever they can to get by, including failure to launch.
This whole movement is what I'm trying to warn you about. If we don't give these people reason and incentive to work because of income inequality and what they see as a rigged workplace, they won't and that's going to lead to all kinds of social issues. Bad social issues. The type of social issues that will lead to violence and I'd argue is starting to manifest in violence.
OK, so I take it you have conceded that point on why people don't feel loyalty due to pay reasons. Let's move on.
"But the discussion is about how the bottom half can increase pay. Moving from McDonald's to Burger King to Arby's and then back to McDonald's isn't going to increase pay. Staying at McDonald's and working up to be a crew trainer then assistant manager, and, eventually GM will."
it isn't any better there. In those cases the fast food workers are just giving up.
https://www.businessinsider.com/mcdonalds-subway-struggle-to-find-workers-forcing-changes-2021-4
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/11/how-mcdonalds-and-wendys-are-dealing-with-fast-food-labor-shortages.html
https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/21/business/restaurant-labor-shortage/index.html
I can keep going with these. No, they didn't move from McDonalds to Burger King. That's what they used to do when they still had a glimmer of hope the system was working for them. Instead they stopped working altogether. A partial societal work stoppage. Exactly the problem I was warning about in my original post.
"2) Self-selection bias. How many folks are going to quit their current known job and jump ship to an unknown for a pay CUT? Or even for the SAME pay? Now conpare those who switch with those who had the OPPORTINITY to switch for a pay raise with those who stayed. Particularly with those who stayed for a promotion, as often those switches come with promotions which is part of the reason for the raise."
Once again you are building your argument on an assumption, one that isn't true. You are assuming these people are going to continue to work instead of saying F it, I'm not doing this.
https://onlabor.org/antiwork-the-digital-praise-of-idleness/
https://www.businessinsider.com/how-gen-z-is-changing-work-most-pro-labor-generation-2022-11
https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/hr-topics/employee-relations/pages/gen-z-worries-about-work-skills.aspx#:~:text=People%20ages%2016%20to%2025%2C%20commonly%20known%20as,they%20say%20they%20prefer%20face-to-face%20interactions%20at%20work.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackkelly/2021/12/30/lying-flat-antiwork-and-the-great-resignation-spreads-worldwide-as-young-people-protest-against-system/?sh=3adbfbe953b7
There is an interesting term that is gaining traction behind quiet quitting, idlers. The idler movement, led primarily by young people, are people who are refusing to participate in the work system in general and are just doing odd jobs and whatever they can to get by, including failure to launch.
This whole movement is what I'm trying to warn you about. If we don't give these people reason and incentive to work because of income inequality and what they see as a rigged workplace, they won't and that's going to lead to all kinds of social issues. Bad social issues. The type of social issues that will lead to violence and I'd argue is starting to manifest in violence.
A labor shortage is forcing chains like Subway and Dunkin' to cut hours, close dining rooms, and...
McDonald's, Subway, Dunkin' and other fast-food chains are scrambling to find workers to fill open positions as the economy reopens.
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SFC Casey O'Mally
SPC Kevin Ford This whole things started with you claiming young people can't get ahead today, and me saying that they can, they just have to work hard to get there.
And then you cite article after article about how people are refusing to work hard.
Work hard, get ahead. End of story.
And then you cite article after article about how people are refusing to work hard.
Work hard, get ahead. End of story.
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SPC Kevin Ford
SFC Casey O'Mally - Our society needs the labor of young people. Young people have recognized the increasingly rigged system for what it is and are withholding their labor. They are going to force a societal change and thereby get ahead, more so then they would have on your plan.
Your plan is basically instead of the 1960s civil rights movement for minorities, they should should have worked their way out of Jim Crow. No, they wouldn't have worked their way out of that. But refusing to participate the the system and forcing change, that works. It worked then, and if young people play their cards right, it will work for them today.
Your plan is basically instead of the 1960s civil rights movement for minorities, they should should have worked their way out of Jim Crow. No, they wouldn't have worked their way out of that. But refusing to participate the the system and forcing change, that works. It worked then, and if young people play their cards right, it will work for them today.
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