Posted on Jul 17, 2023
How Biden's latest student loan forgiveness differs from debt relief blocked by Supreme Court
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"Unlike the broad forgiveness Mr. Biden originally attempted to provide, the forthcoming debt discharges by the Department of Education are narrower, stemming from "fixes" announced by the administration in April 2022 to ensure borrowers enrolled in income-driven repayment plans have an accurate count of the number of monthly payments that go toward forgiveness.
The new student debt plan also relies on a different law than the one that was struck down by the Supreme Court. Under the 1965 Higher Education Act and federal regulations, a borrower is eligible for loan forgiveness after making 240 or 300 qualifying monthly payments — roughly 20 or 25 years of payments — on an income-driven repayment plan or standard repayment plan."
The new student debt plan also relies on a different law than the one that was struck down by the Supreme Court. Under the 1965 Higher Education Act and federal regulations, a borrower is eligible for loan forgiveness after making 240 or 300 qualifying monthly payments — roughly 20 or 25 years of payments — on an income-driven repayment plan or standard repayment plan."
How Biden's latest student loan forgiveness differs from debt relief blocked by Supreme Court
Posted from cbsnews.com
Joe Biden
Loans
Education
Supreme Court
Law
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 8
12
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Choosing a major that has zero real world applicability and basically zero income potential isn't a problem that needs to be charged to the taxpayer.
If our education system would stop creating activists in High School, they might actually choose a path that leads them to a successful career and an income that would allow them to pay back their loans. But... that isn't the case currently. We have grown a generation, now a second wave, of children/young adults that found their passion for activist causes in high school or earlier. They follow that passion to college, where there are a lot of others who share that passion. Passion doesn't pay the bills, unfortunately. Most of those people will be managing a Starbuck's or stocking shelves at Target, because there is no market for what they were passionate about in college after spending $100k on their education. That is a personal choice, a personal decision to take the path that they CHOSE. That doesn't mean that they get to default on a loan that is backed by the taxpayers.
If our education system would stop creating activists in High School, they might actually choose a path that leads them to a successful career and an income that would allow them to pay back their loans. But... that isn't the case currently. We have grown a generation, now a second wave, of children/young adults that found their passion for activist causes in high school or earlier. They follow that passion to college, where there are a lot of others who share that passion. Passion doesn't pay the bills, unfortunately. Most of those people will be managing a Starbuck's or stocking shelves at Target, because there is no market for what they were passionate about in college after spending $100k on their education. That is a personal choice, a personal decision to take the path that they CHOSE. That doesn't mean that they get to default on a loan that is backed by the taxpayers.
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PO3 Justin Bowen
"Choosing a major that has zero real world applicability and basically zero income potential isn't a problem that needs to be charged to the taxpayer."
You're basing this judgement of the degrees of people who you know nothing about on...what?
You know what more than half of degrees are in? Health professions, business, engineering, law enforcement/homeland security/firefighting, and computer sciences. You know what the remaining less-than-half of degrees includes? Hard sciences, law, maths, and other degrees of the sort that pretty much nobody labels as useless or having "zero real world applicability and basically zero income potential". A small minority are degrees earned in any given year are the sort of degrees that people deride as "basket weaving".
"If our education system would stop creating activists in High School, they might actually choose a path that leads them to a successful career and an income that would allow them to pay back their loans. But... that isn't the case currently. We have grown a generation, now a second wave, of children/young adults that found their passion for activist causes in high school or earlier. They follow that passion to college, where there are a lot of others who share that passion."
So, which parts of the following oaths did you simply move your lips to when you joined and while you were in and how much of either did you complain in your echo chamber about being "woke":
1) Enlisted Oath
2) Sailor's Creed
After answering that question, answer this one: how much of whatever US history and civics classes that you probably took in middle school and/or high school (depending on how pokey you were/are) did you sleep through?
Decades ago when I was in middle school and high school, they were still having students read works from people like John Stuart Mill, Alexis de Tocqueville, Ralph Waldo Emerson, and Henry David Thoreau. Being an activist was considered a characteristic that set Americans apart from many Europeans (though, there were certainly no small number of people in the US who weren't overly fond of women, Black people, Indigenous Americans, and others pressing for basic human rights during those times because, like plenty of people today, they thought that activism was a dirty word that led to things like, you know, Black people not being enslaved, women not remaining in the kitchen with black eyes, and so on). I guess they were teaching students that it's better to be oppressed and to not try to make the world better for future generations when you were in high school?
"Most of those people will be managing a Starbuck's or stocking shelves at Target, because there is no market for what they were passionate about in college after spending $100k on their education."
And who are these people again that are spending $100k on an education that gets them little more than Starbucks jobs (which, if the video of the robotic barista making a latte is any indication, won't be a job that they'll be falling back on at some point in the future)?
" That doesn't mean that they get to default on a loan that is backed by the taxpayers."
If their loan is forgiven, then they don't owe anything to default on. You either don't know what loan forgiveness means or you're intentionally using a red herring to try to make a point.
You're basing this judgement of the degrees of people who you know nothing about on...what?
You know what more than half of degrees are in? Health professions, business, engineering, law enforcement/homeland security/firefighting, and computer sciences. You know what the remaining less-than-half of degrees includes? Hard sciences, law, maths, and other degrees of the sort that pretty much nobody labels as useless or having "zero real world applicability and basically zero income potential". A small minority are degrees earned in any given year are the sort of degrees that people deride as "basket weaving".
"If our education system would stop creating activists in High School, they might actually choose a path that leads them to a successful career and an income that would allow them to pay back their loans. But... that isn't the case currently. We have grown a generation, now a second wave, of children/young adults that found their passion for activist causes in high school or earlier. They follow that passion to college, where there are a lot of others who share that passion."
So, which parts of the following oaths did you simply move your lips to when you joined and while you were in and how much of either did you complain in your echo chamber about being "woke":
1) Enlisted Oath
2) Sailor's Creed
After answering that question, answer this one: how much of whatever US history and civics classes that you probably took in middle school and/or high school (depending on how pokey you were/are) did you sleep through?
Decades ago when I was in middle school and high school, they were still having students read works from people like John Stuart Mill, Alexis de Tocqueville, Ralph Waldo Emerson, and Henry David Thoreau. Being an activist was considered a characteristic that set Americans apart from many Europeans (though, there were certainly no small number of people in the US who weren't overly fond of women, Black people, Indigenous Americans, and others pressing for basic human rights during those times because, like plenty of people today, they thought that activism was a dirty word that led to things like, you know, Black people not being enslaved, women not remaining in the kitchen with black eyes, and so on). I guess they were teaching students that it's better to be oppressed and to not try to make the world better for future generations when you were in high school?
"Most of those people will be managing a Starbuck's or stocking shelves at Target, because there is no market for what they were passionate about in college after spending $100k on their education."
And who are these people again that are spending $100k on an education that gets them little more than Starbucks jobs (which, if the video of the robotic barista making a latte is any indication, won't be a job that they'll be falling back on at some point in the future)?
" That doesn't mean that they get to default on a loan that is backed by the taxpayers."
If their loan is forgiven, then they don't owe anything to default on. You either don't know what loan forgiveness means or you're intentionally using a red herring to try to make a point.
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PO3 Shayne Seibert
PO3 Justin Bowen - Struck a nerve, did I?
I have a daughter taking college classes this fall. I've seen the available majors and I laughed at the class schedule in front of the counselor.
The changes to the majors, and the classes that are now REQUIRED are your beloved woke BS. Gender studies, racial history, etc that have no business being taught at taxpayer expense for a major in Forensic Science, or American Sign Language.
The reason so many loans get defaulted on is that the students don't want to be indoctrinated with this woke BS. The classes don't apply to any real world situation that most of them will ever be affiliated with, but the unions decided that every major WILL have a requirement for these classes. Smart kids say, "screw it, I can make just as much without the degree" and leave school with minimal loan balances.
Those that fall into the woke trap of requirements for the classes become fully indoctrinated, and they deserve the full accountability for their loans. I don't feel sorry for a single student who has $100k loans to pay back.
I have a$350k home that is in a neighborhood that I really don't like. I made a poor choice on my area, does that mean that my choice makes the taxpayer pay off my loan? That's exactly the argument from the left on the loan forgiveness plan. We screwed up and now we don't want to pay the loans, so please big daddy government make them go away.
Hypocrites much?
I have a daughter taking college classes this fall. I've seen the available majors and I laughed at the class schedule in front of the counselor.
The changes to the majors, and the classes that are now REQUIRED are your beloved woke BS. Gender studies, racial history, etc that have no business being taught at taxpayer expense for a major in Forensic Science, or American Sign Language.
The reason so many loans get defaulted on is that the students don't want to be indoctrinated with this woke BS. The classes don't apply to any real world situation that most of them will ever be affiliated with, but the unions decided that every major WILL have a requirement for these classes. Smart kids say, "screw it, I can make just as much without the degree" and leave school with minimal loan balances.
Those that fall into the woke trap of requirements for the classes become fully indoctrinated, and they deserve the full accountability for their loans. I don't feel sorry for a single student who has $100k loans to pay back.
I have a$350k home that is in a neighborhood that I really don't like. I made a poor choice on my area, does that mean that my choice makes the taxpayer pay off my loan? That's exactly the argument from the left on the loan forgiveness plan. We screwed up and now we don't want to pay the loans, so please big daddy government make them go away.
Hypocrites much?
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PO3 Justin Bowen
PO3 Shayne Seibert - "The changes to the majors, and the classes that are now REQUIRED are your beloved woke BS. Gender studies, racial history, etc that have no business being taught at taxpayer expense for a major in Forensic Science, or American Sign Language."
Unless her major IS gender studies, it's VERY unlikely that gender studies or racial history are REQUIRED classes. They're likely OPTIONS under a CATEGORY of classes that she needs to take classes from to satisfy GenEd requirements, which exist so that graduates have a basic education from which to draw upon. Your daughter's schedule is likely a schedule that SHE chose. Guess who raised her?
"The reason so many loans get defaulted on is that the students don't want to be indoctrinated with this woke BS."
No, it's not. The reason students default is because they don't pay their bills. That's what defaulting IS. How did you get into the military without knowing how to use a dictionary (something taught in grade school)?
"The classes don't apply to any real world situation that most of them will ever be affiliated with, but the unions decided that every major WILL have a requirement for these classes."
And you know this...how?
Marine scientists studying marine mammal communications and biology draw on ideas learned about in linguistics classes and human physiology fields. Mechanical and chemical engineers REGULARLY draw on ideas from the biological sciences. Physicians and human biology researches REGULARLY draw on ideas from sociology, maths, and so on. The fact that YOU don't know anything about science or engineering is your own fault. The fact that you think human knowledge exists in and human learning is done in silos is your own fault and not at all - in the least bit - reflective or REALITY.
"Smart kids say, "screw it, I can make just as much without the degree" and leave school with minimal loan balances."
Good luck to those kids when it comes to EVER being an engineer, scientist, physician, lawyer, or business executive - or hell, a commissioned officer - without a degree. The very few examples that I'm sure you're about to try to trot out are the EXCEPTION and rare ones at that. They're going to be relegated to working in a trade - which can be good jobs when it comes to comfortably supporting a middle class family but absolutely suck when it comes to working conditions and work-life balance (I did it for fifteen years after the Navy before I moved into management - for the rest of their lives. It's no coincidence that the majority of the people I worked with and around while traveling the country were divorced on not on their first marriages. It's no coincidence that the people in the plants I would visit were miserable people and unhealthy.
"I have a $350k home that is in a neighborhood that I really don't like. I made a poor choice on my area, does that mean that my choice makes the taxpayer pay off my loan?"
Oooh, a $350k home in a neighborhood you don't like? You know what that's not analogous to? Higher ed.
You know what IS an analogy for higher ed? Secondary school. Hell, primary school as well. Why should taxpayers pay for primary schooling and secondary schooling?
Answer: because the economic benefits to society VASTLY outweigh the costs.
Actual first-world countries (this isn't one by virtually any standard of well-being) invest heavily in higher ed because they know that the long-term benefits for their economies and for the average citizen easily outweigh the cost to the public. We're physically and mentally unhealthier. Our cities are far less suitable for meeting the needs of the people living in them. We enjoy fewer legal protections from companies. We've had more school shootings than dozens of other western countries combined have over the entire history of firearms. We have fewer labor rights. Women have fewer rights. The list goes on and on and on and poor and middle class right-wingers are proud of it because right-wing billionaires have convinced them that it's in their best interest to defend the status quo and is largely the result of our lack of investment in education (millions of right-wingers are literally too dumb to know better because of the intentional lack of investment and poorly directed investment in education).
"That's exactly the argument from the left on the loan forgiveness plan."
No, it's not - and it's your own fault that you don't know that. The argument is that the economic benefits of reducing the debt load for something that should cost little to nothing out-of-pocket easily outweigh the cost of reducing debt. The argument is that a consumption-based economy (which is what we have) is likely to grow slower or shrink if people can't afford to...consume. When a significant portion of your net income goes towards serving educational debt, you're left with less to use for other things (like food, clothing, healthcare, housing, transportation, and so on). Final household discretionary consumption - roughly 40% of the US GDP - declines as non-discretionary spending goes up, which is...bad for long-term economic growth. Household spending educational debt - which is non-discretionary - crowds out household spending on other non-discretionary spending and discretionary spending as a whole.
Maybe your daughter can explain all of this to you in simpler terms once as she goes through college.
Unless her major IS gender studies, it's VERY unlikely that gender studies or racial history are REQUIRED classes. They're likely OPTIONS under a CATEGORY of classes that she needs to take classes from to satisfy GenEd requirements, which exist so that graduates have a basic education from which to draw upon. Your daughter's schedule is likely a schedule that SHE chose. Guess who raised her?
"The reason so many loans get defaulted on is that the students don't want to be indoctrinated with this woke BS."
No, it's not. The reason students default is because they don't pay their bills. That's what defaulting IS. How did you get into the military without knowing how to use a dictionary (something taught in grade school)?
"The classes don't apply to any real world situation that most of them will ever be affiliated with, but the unions decided that every major WILL have a requirement for these classes."
And you know this...how?
Marine scientists studying marine mammal communications and biology draw on ideas learned about in linguistics classes and human physiology fields. Mechanical and chemical engineers REGULARLY draw on ideas from the biological sciences. Physicians and human biology researches REGULARLY draw on ideas from sociology, maths, and so on. The fact that YOU don't know anything about science or engineering is your own fault. The fact that you think human knowledge exists in and human learning is done in silos is your own fault and not at all - in the least bit - reflective or REALITY.
"Smart kids say, "screw it, I can make just as much without the degree" and leave school with minimal loan balances."
Good luck to those kids when it comes to EVER being an engineer, scientist, physician, lawyer, or business executive - or hell, a commissioned officer - without a degree. The very few examples that I'm sure you're about to try to trot out are the EXCEPTION and rare ones at that. They're going to be relegated to working in a trade - which can be good jobs when it comes to comfortably supporting a middle class family but absolutely suck when it comes to working conditions and work-life balance (I did it for fifteen years after the Navy before I moved into management - for the rest of their lives. It's no coincidence that the majority of the people I worked with and around while traveling the country were divorced on not on their first marriages. It's no coincidence that the people in the plants I would visit were miserable people and unhealthy.
"I have a $350k home that is in a neighborhood that I really don't like. I made a poor choice on my area, does that mean that my choice makes the taxpayer pay off my loan?"
Oooh, a $350k home in a neighborhood you don't like? You know what that's not analogous to? Higher ed.
You know what IS an analogy for higher ed? Secondary school. Hell, primary school as well. Why should taxpayers pay for primary schooling and secondary schooling?
Answer: because the economic benefits to society VASTLY outweigh the costs.
Actual first-world countries (this isn't one by virtually any standard of well-being) invest heavily in higher ed because they know that the long-term benefits for their economies and for the average citizen easily outweigh the cost to the public. We're physically and mentally unhealthier. Our cities are far less suitable for meeting the needs of the people living in them. We enjoy fewer legal protections from companies. We've had more school shootings than dozens of other western countries combined have over the entire history of firearms. We have fewer labor rights. Women have fewer rights. The list goes on and on and on and poor and middle class right-wingers are proud of it because right-wing billionaires have convinced them that it's in their best interest to defend the status quo and is largely the result of our lack of investment in education (millions of right-wingers are literally too dumb to know better because of the intentional lack of investment and poorly directed investment in education).
"That's exactly the argument from the left on the loan forgiveness plan."
No, it's not - and it's your own fault that you don't know that. The argument is that the economic benefits of reducing the debt load for something that should cost little to nothing out-of-pocket easily outweigh the cost of reducing debt. The argument is that a consumption-based economy (which is what we have) is likely to grow slower or shrink if people can't afford to...consume. When a significant portion of your net income goes towards serving educational debt, you're left with less to use for other things (like food, clothing, healthcare, housing, transportation, and so on). Final household discretionary consumption - roughly 40% of the US GDP - declines as non-discretionary spending goes up, which is...bad for long-term economic growth. Household spending educational debt - which is non-discretionary - crowds out household spending on other non-discretionary spending and discretionary spending as a whole.
Maybe your daughter can explain all of this to you in simpler terms once as she goes through college.
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PO3 Shayne Seibert
PO3 Justin Bowen - Since you've invested some time in this:
Women have fewer rights. The list goes on and on and on and poor and middle class right-wingers are proud of it because right-wing billionaires have convinced them that it's in their best interest to defend the status quo and is largely the result of our lack of investment in education (millions of right-wingers are literally too dumb to know better because of the intentional lack of investment and poorly directed investment in education).
Women are losing rights because the left is deleting their normal reality. Women's sports are being infested with low T males who can't win anything in their own gender. Women's spaces, bathrooms and locker rooms are being converted to all gender spaces effectively banning women from using them.
I hate to tell you, but an education in our institutions isn't a guarantee of a successful career. Trade schools and even OJT oftentimes pays more over the career than those majors that force you to take the gender study courses just to graduate in your field. And yes, for a forensic science degree you HAVE to take a REQUIRED class every semester in some random woke course that has absolutely nothing to do with your major.
Oooh, a $350k home in a neighborhood you don't like? You know what that's not analogous to? Higher ed.
Oooh, but it is! Personal choice is a real thing. Not that you would take any personal responsibility for a choice that led you to a loss. Just like buying a house, taking out a loan for education is a risk. If you don't finish school, you are out a huge amount of money. If you complete school, you still signed your name on the dotted line to pay back the amount of the loan to the lender. There is nothing in the contract that says big daddy government will erase said debt to ease your burden, just as there is nothing in my contract that gets me out of a $1700 house payment.
Women have fewer rights. The list goes on and on and on and poor and middle class right-wingers are proud of it because right-wing billionaires have convinced them that it's in their best interest to defend the status quo and is largely the result of our lack of investment in education (millions of right-wingers are literally too dumb to know better because of the intentional lack of investment and poorly directed investment in education).
Women are losing rights because the left is deleting their normal reality. Women's sports are being infested with low T males who can't win anything in their own gender. Women's spaces, bathrooms and locker rooms are being converted to all gender spaces effectively banning women from using them.
I hate to tell you, but an education in our institutions isn't a guarantee of a successful career. Trade schools and even OJT oftentimes pays more over the career than those majors that force you to take the gender study courses just to graduate in your field. And yes, for a forensic science degree you HAVE to take a REQUIRED class every semester in some random woke course that has absolutely nothing to do with your major.
Oooh, a $350k home in a neighborhood you don't like? You know what that's not analogous to? Higher ed.
Oooh, but it is! Personal choice is a real thing. Not that you would take any personal responsibility for a choice that led you to a loss. Just like buying a house, taking out a loan for education is a risk. If you don't finish school, you are out a huge amount of money. If you complete school, you still signed your name on the dotted line to pay back the amount of the loan to the lender. There is nothing in the contract that says big daddy government will erase said debt to ease your burden, just as there is nothing in my contract that gets me out of a $1700 house payment.
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Honestly, I have great sympathy for those students who find themselves owing massive education debts. They were ill-prepared to make financial decisions upon entering colleges and universities. Their parents and their schools didn't provide any training in budgeting and financing (with the exception of those of us who are members of USAA - USAA provided our children with low interest credit cards with low debt ceilings, reasonable healthcare insurance tailored for young students, and checking accounts as well as a well-written guide to credit, budgeting and finance. They also promised to alert us parents if our children abused it). Then the government set themselves up like a loan shark (and acted with all the morality of a loan shark). They loaned our children sums that they couldn't possibly repay. Personally, my wife and I helped our children, paying most of the cost and encouraging them to work while attending school, thus keeping their student loan debt within reasonable limits. Lastly, colleges and universities began competing for their share of the inflated population of college students, not by offering better curricula and educational opportunities, but rather by expanding facilities to handle larger student bodies and offering more attractive amenities to attract students. Ultimately, there is plenty of blame to go around including the individual responsibility of each student debtor. Thus, it only seems fair to me to implement a plan in which everyone contributes to alleviating the debt and taking steps to insure that it stops growing.
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Maj Robert Thornton
Good points CPT Jack Durish! Back I the day, I borrowed 1k x 3 years @7% interest for my first degree. I didn’t need it for the 4th year because I was an instate student at that point. I did receive a 2k grant from NC for my nursing degree. I didn’t work 3 years in NC so I had to pay it back.
Understanding the cost of higher education, I opened UGMA accounts for my sons after they were born. Both got Hope Scholarships in GA, plus one had soccer scholarships. I payed their incidentals, they graduated with no debt and a nice bankroll in their accounts to start life. When each of my grandkids were born I opened UGMA accounts for each of them. It is for collage, tech school, or to get set up for beginning to be an adult.
I do feel sorry for those that got sucked into exorbitant debt, but I feel strongly that they signed the loan papers and they are responsible for repaying their debts or file for bankruptcy. I don’t feel my tax money should be used to bail these kids out. I think the universities are complicit and should help to mitigate the student debt.
Understanding the cost of higher education, I opened UGMA accounts for my sons after they were born. Both got Hope Scholarships in GA, plus one had soccer scholarships. I payed their incidentals, they graduated with no debt and a nice bankroll in their accounts to start life. When each of my grandkids were born I opened UGMA accounts for each of them. It is for collage, tech school, or to get set up for beginning to be an adult.
I do feel sorry for those that got sucked into exorbitant debt, but I feel strongly that they signed the loan papers and they are responsible for repaying their debts or file for bankruptcy. I don’t feel my tax money should be used to bail these kids out. I think the universities are complicit and should help to mitigate the student debt.
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CPT Jack Durish
SFC Bernard Walko - Can't argue with that. Unfortunately, Biden (or whomever is pulling his strings) is using this issue to garner a voting block and couldn't care less about the fairness, decency, or lawfulness of their proposals
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The zeitgeist of student loans comes from the poor terms and rates -- Biden's latest proposal doesn't address this and only ensures the next generation will seek the same relief for poor decisions.
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