Posted on Apr 18, 2017
The problem with the phrase "There are no atheists in foxholes"
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This idiotic phrase has popped up in several discussions here on RP, normally presented as an argument by Christians (sometimes by Muslims) who don't understand atheism. First, the statement is just false. There are more atheists in foxholes than in the general population. In December 2004, there were 21% in the military who were atheist/no religious preference, while the general population was at 14%.
Kurt Vonnegut, a military veteran and an atheist said “People say there are no atheists in foxholes. A lot of people think this is a good argument against atheism. Personally, I think it's a much better argument against foxholes.”
Pat Tillman was an atheist. So was Ted Williams. And Senator Bob Kerrey, who was a SEAL and who earned the Medal of Honor - he labels himself as agnostic. If anyone had the opportunity to magically convert to worship of a god, Kerrey would have been the poster child for it, but he didn't.
The phrase is insulting and denigrating to non-believers, and those who use it need to be confronted over it.
Kurt Vonnegut, a military veteran and an atheist said “People say there are no atheists in foxholes. A lot of people think this is a good argument against atheism. Personally, I think it's a much better argument against foxholes.”
Pat Tillman was an atheist. So was Ted Williams. And Senator Bob Kerrey, who was a SEAL and who earned the Medal of Honor - he labels himself as agnostic. If anyone had the opportunity to magically convert to worship of a god, Kerrey would have been the poster child for it, but he didn't.
The phrase is insulting and denigrating to non-believers, and those who use it need to be confronted over it.
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Atheism
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Islam
Posted 7 y ago
Responses: 9
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Relax Greg, it is an aphorism. I don't think anyone actually means to suggest there are no atheists in the military or foxholes. You have to be starved for entertainment or not know what an aphorism is to spend a lot of time dispelling them.
Here are some more aphorisms if you would like to dispel them too.
A bad penny always turns up.
A barking dog never bites.
A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
A chain is only as strong as its weakest link.
A dog is a man's best friend.
A fool and his money are soon parted.
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.
A friend in need is a friend indeed.
A good beginning makes a good ending.
A jack of all trades is master of none.
A job worth doing is worth doing well.
A little learning is a dangerous thing.
A man is known by the company he keeps.
A man with one clock knows what time it is. A man with two clocks is never sure.
A man's home is his castle.
A miss is as good as a mile.
A new broom sweeps clean.
A nod is as good as a wink to a blind man.
A penny saved is a penny earned.
A place for everything and everything in its place.
A rising tide lifts all boats.
A rolling stone gathers no moss.
A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.
A soft answer turneth away wrath.
A stitch in time saves nine.
A thing of beauty is a joy forever.
A watched pot never boils.
A woman's place is in the home.
A woman's work is never done.
A word to the wise is sufficient.
Absence makes the heart grow fonder.
Actions speak louder than words.
All for one and one for all.
All that glitters is not gold.
All the world's a stage.
All things come to he who waits.
All we learn from history is that we learn nothing from history.
All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.
All's fair in love and war.
All's well that ends well.
Always cut the cards.
An apple a day keeps the doctor away.
An army marches on its stomach.
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
Any port in a storm.
Anything that can go wrong, will go wrong.
Appearances can be deceiving.
April showers bring May flowers.
As you sow, so shall you reap.
Ask a silly question and you'll get a silly answer.
Ask and it shall be given.
Ask and you shall receive.
Ask no questions and hear no lies.
Bad news travels fast.
Here are some more aphorisms if you would like to dispel them too.
A bad penny always turns up.
A barking dog never bites.
A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
A chain is only as strong as its weakest link.
A dog is a man's best friend.
A fool and his money are soon parted.
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.
A friend in need is a friend indeed.
A good beginning makes a good ending.
A jack of all trades is master of none.
A job worth doing is worth doing well.
A little learning is a dangerous thing.
A man is known by the company he keeps.
A man with one clock knows what time it is. A man with two clocks is never sure.
A man's home is his castle.
A miss is as good as a mile.
A new broom sweeps clean.
A nod is as good as a wink to a blind man.
A penny saved is a penny earned.
A place for everything and everything in its place.
A rising tide lifts all boats.
A rolling stone gathers no moss.
A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.
A soft answer turneth away wrath.
A stitch in time saves nine.
A thing of beauty is a joy forever.
A watched pot never boils.
A woman's place is in the home.
A woman's work is never done.
A word to the wise is sufficient.
Absence makes the heart grow fonder.
Actions speak louder than words.
All for one and one for all.
All that glitters is not gold.
All the world's a stage.
All things come to he who waits.
All we learn from history is that we learn nothing from history.
All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.
All's fair in love and war.
All's well that ends well.
Always cut the cards.
An apple a day keeps the doctor away.
An army marches on its stomach.
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
Any port in a storm.
Anything that can go wrong, will go wrong.
Appearances can be deceiving.
April showers bring May flowers.
As you sow, so shall you reap.
Ask a silly question and you'll get a silly answer.
Ask and it shall be given.
Ask and you shall receive.
Ask no questions and hear no lies.
Bad news travels fast.
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Cpl Jeff N.
SGT (Join to see) - Perhaps you don't understand what an aphorism is. They are based on general truths but not absolute truths. A few secular ones to strike the contrast:
The squeaky wheel gets the oil: Usually it does because you wouldn't oil a non squeaking wheel but not everyone will even oil a squeaking one. So not 100% true but generally true.
A fool and his money are soon parted: Not always, there are plenty of rich fools. It is generally truth that foolish people don't long keep many things, money included. So generally true but not 100% true
Then our foxhole aphorism:
There are no atheists in foxholes: Yes, there are but most people believe in some sort of higher being whether they are Christian or Jew, Muslim or Buddhist. Even the non believers (in a major world religion) may have a rabbits foot or some other talisman to bring them "good luck".
The squeaky wheel gets the oil: Usually it does because you wouldn't oil a non squeaking wheel but not everyone will even oil a squeaking one. So not 100% true but generally true.
A fool and his money are soon parted: Not always, there are plenty of rich fools. It is generally truth that foolish people don't long keep many things, money included. So generally true but not 100% true
Then our foxhole aphorism:
There are no atheists in foxholes: Yes, there are but most people believe in some sort of higher being whether they are Christian or Jew, Muslim or Buddhist. Even the non believers (in a major world religion) may have a rabbits foot or some other talisman to bring them "good luck".
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Capt Gregory Prickett
Cpl Jeff N. - Jeff, the words of an old book don't serve as evidence. We don't know who wrote it, don't have the originals, and are basing it on copies of translations of copies of translations. We know that it is full of acts which would, outside of the Bible, be condemned as immoral. We know that the book is not historically accurate and that many of its prophecies failed, but believers ignore those issues and expect nonbelievers to accept it when it is quoted to them. I'm sorry, but I don't accept the validity of the Bible as evidence any more than I accept the Quran or the Bhagavad Gita as evidence. I imagine that you don't accept the later two either.
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Cpl Jeff N.
Capt Gregory Prickett - Correction, you don't know who wrote it, those that believe know it to be God Breathed.
I did not expect you to accept the used scripture. Once again, you asked why a believer would even need a foxhole, wouldn't God simply protect him from the bullets. My response was as a believer using a set of Bible versus to explain why a Christian wouldn't do that.
If you ask a question based upon a faith related issue you should expect a scriptural answer. You don't have to believe or accept it but that is why the believer does (or doesn't do) things. You may choose to discount it completely. That is something between you and God.
I did not expect you to accept the used scripture. Once again, you asked why a believer would even need a foxhole, wouldn't God simply protect him from the bullets. My response was as a believer using a set of Bible versus to explain why a Christian wouldn't do that.
If you ask a question based upon a faith related issue you should expect a scriptural answer. You don't have to believe or accept it but that is why the believer does (or doesn't do) things. You may choose to discount it completely. That is something between you and God.
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The Dirty Dozen (1967) with Lee Marvin: "You're really ... quite emotional, aren't you?"
Probably one of the best lines in the movie: "I owe you an apology, Colonel. I always thought that you were a cold, unimaginative, tight lipped officer. But ...
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Maj John Bell
Capt Gregory Prickett - I am not in the habit of putting myself in danger, then saying God will save me. That is the kind of test to which I refer, and you know it. When you raised your children, did you save them from every consequence of every action, or did you let then find out some things the hard way. On God's scale, something that I find personally catastrophic, may not be such a big deal. Just as a child getting a "boo boo" seems catastrophic to the child but a a mature adult, I know it's insignificant.
Personally I don't care if you think I am delusional. But accept that I've hit a point in my life where I refuse to guard against people being offended when they are predisposed to it. If I were you I'd avoid me, after all I'm delusional and insensitive.
Personally I don't care if you think I am delusional. But accept that I've hit a point in my life where I refuse to guard against people being offended when they are predisposed to it. If I were you I'd avoid me, after all I'm delusional and insensitive.
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Maj John Bell
Capt Gregory Prickett - We've had this debate about empiricism and the scientific method before. Prove empirically that love exists, that hate exists, that thought exists, that justice exists etc. etc. etc.
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Capt Gregory Prickett
MAJ (Join to see) - Jaren, you're shifting the burden of proof, which belongs to the person making the assertion. It's not the responsibility of the atheist to prove gods don't exist. The second part of your comment is Pascal's wager, which only works if the equation is binary. The wager fails if there are more than one choice, because if the real god is Vishnu, you're just as hosed as I am. Religion is not needed to be moral or to become a better person.
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MAJ (Join to see)
Capt Gregory Prickett - I agree completely, which is why the most important thing is to find a central belief system which lifts you up and makes you a better person. Religion as a whole has failed miserably accomplishing that throughout history.
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I don't know where this stupid phase came from and actually it offends me. If I'm getting shot at I'm not going to pray to some God who probably doesn't even care in the first place. God loves all yet he allows people in Africa to be born with terrible diseases with short lives, brings disasters to countries that don't worship him and punishes people with rape and other heinous crimes because of their parents actions what kind of kind God is that?
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CWO3 (Join to see)
I always respected the wisdom and words of Rev. Billy Graham, and enjoyed one of his Crusades years ago. It was an uplifting experience and not once was I asked for money. In contrast, most anyone in the spotlight claiming to be doing God's work today is the opposite of a Christian. They are no different than the money changers in the Temple IMO. This because many have a sordid past of bad conduct and capitalize on the weakness and desperation of many for their money. They have Glass Cathedrals worth millions and are syndicated, and live in castles with a fleet of jets. If they were true Christians they would practice in a simple building and use the money to help others vice themselves. Mother Teresa left a Bible and very few personal belongings and touched many lives all over the World. I'll take a dirt-poor tent revivalist with a genuine message and faith any day over these that have gained fame and fortune in the name of God. When asked, they respond that they have been truly blessed, when they are really crooks and deceivers. If there is a God he holds a special place in Hell for them, hopefully.
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