Posted on Sep 16, 2015
Why are commanders afraid to let their NCO's use physical corrective actions in the form of Exercises.
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It seems that in these four short years I have been in the Army, I have witnessed the usual (Smoke) sessions being unauthorized and becoming a term that leaders are almost afraid to use any more. I feel as though this is due to command teams not having a full understanding of Ar 600-20. If the Leaders would only read this AR then they will completely understand the differences between disciplining and hazing. Once the Higher echelons of leadership have this knowledge they can then have an NCOPD over the subject so that leaders at the lower level can enforce physical reprimands for infractions. The lower enlisted That are coming in now could care less that you take their time and money. For the most part they live in the barracks, eat in the DFAC and don't have anything to worry about financially which in turn gives them the "you can't do anything to me" mind frame. Yes I understand you can do paper work and eventually over time kick them out of the army but that process takes a long time, meanwhile you still have to deal with the undisciplined unruly soldiers that at this point jut don't care anymore and cause even bigger problems. On the other hand I have personally seen total dirt bag soldiers become very squared away just from a few, very simple "smoke sessions". Can anyone explain why the army is turning away from this style of leadership that has maintained discipline among junior enlisted and switching to a softer more " wag of the finger" style of keeping the discipline. I feel like it's truly take the power out of the hands of the NCO's and causing the junior enlisted to get complacent and lose their military bearing.
Posted in these groups: 
Leadership
Leadership Development
Leadership Leadership Development
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 17
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I think Soldiers take the "doing push-ups" thing too personal. I always used that time to explain to the Soldier there deficiency.....in a long, detailed manner. :)
Part of the problem is what SGT Kristin Wiley touched on, NCO's are not explaining what the Soldier did. If you are conducting such corrective action, then you better be explaining to the Soldier what they did wrong, and why they will not do that again. And NEVER make it personal. If you make it personal as a leader, then you already lost......
Part of the problem is what SGT Kristin Wiley touched on, NCO's are not explaining what the Soldier did. If you are conducting such corrective action, then you better be explaining to the Soldier what they did wrong, and why they will not do that again. And NEVER make it personal. If you make it personal as a leader, then you already lost......
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SSG Ricardo Marcial
SGM, thank you. I learned that early as a new NCO (USMC) Gunny Rodriguez, made sure of it....hint. Corrective action is not punishment nor should it be punishment.
I really hated paperwork anyway, long walks on the beach, in full gear, ahh such lovely memories.
I really hated paperwork anyway, long walks on the beach, in full gear, ahh such lovely memories.
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Oh wow. Alright, let's jump into this.
If the goal is to maintain good order and discipline, use the tools at your disposal. But "smoking" a troop is just one tool, and it's one of the least effective tools, because frankly it's "a punishment that doesn't fit the crime" in many if not most cases.
Physical Exertion is a great punishment for being lazy. It's an amazing punishment if people aren't exerting themselves. It's a horrible punishment for almost anything else. Because it doesn't teach the desired lesson.
Physical Exertion doesn't teach Respect. And anyone who thinks it does has mistaken Fear for Respect. That doesn't mean you can't use Physical Exertion as a tool. It is absolutely a viable tool when used appropriately. But with "all the other tools available" why would you resort to this specific tool to correct a specific deficiency, when you can use other tools to escalate the interest of these so-called "dirt bag soldiers" to the level you want.
If they look horrible in uniform. Constant uniform inspections.
If they are constantly late. Constant musters.
If the work they produce isn't up to snuff, make them redo it until it is.
NCOs still have all the power they did before. In addition they have the ability to use the collective power of "small unit tactics" to correct individuals. It's amazing what a squad or team can do to correct the attitude to an under-performer when you start collectively correcting a "group deficiency of the weakest member" (a la the chain is only as strong as our weakest link).
If the goal is to maintain good order and discipline, use the tools at your disposal. But "smoking" a troop is just one tool, and it's one of the least effective tools, because frankly it's "a punishment that doesn't fit the crime" in many if not most cases.
Physical Exertion is a great punishment for being lazy. It's an amazing punishment if people aren't exerting themselves. It's a horrible punishment for almost anything else. Because it doesn't teach the desired lesson.
Physical Exertion doesn't teach Respect. And anyone who thinks it does has mistaken Fear for Respect. That doesn't mean you can't use Physical Exertion as a tool. It is absolutely a viable tool when used appropriately. But with "all the other tools available" why would you resort to this specific tool to correct a specific deficiency, when you can use other tools to escalate the interest of these so-called "dirt bag soldiers" to the level you want.
If they look horrible in uniform. Constant uniform inspections.
If they are constantly late. Constant musters.
If the work they produce isn't up to snuff, make them redo it until it is.
NCOs still have all the power they did before. In addition they have the ability to use the collective power of "small unit tactics" to correct individuals. It's amazing what a squad or team can do to correct the attitude to an under-performer when you start collectively correcting a "group deficiency of the weakest member" (a la the chain is only as strong as our weakest link).
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SSgt (Join to see)
Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS I have to respectfully disagree. We are in the business of pain. If there is one thing that soldiers understand, it is pain. When I make a soldier do flutter kicks, pushups, iron mikes or some combination of such, it's not because the soldier didn't know what to do. It's because he knew what to do, and chose not to do it. Smoking does teach respect, if it's used with respect. Soldiers know that I mean what I say, and I that expect them to act as professionals. In other words I believe that it is an effective tool. It's also instantaneous and allows NCO and soldier to move on to the task at hand almost immediately. When the correction used is immediate, I believe it has a much better effect on the soldier.
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
SSgt (Join to see) Pain doesn't teach respect. It teaches fear. Fear is a terrible motivator. It teaches the subject to avoid.
To draw a parallel. If you have a child or pet, you don't use pain motivators to attempt train them. It doesn't work. The few exceptions are "imminent danger" like reaching for a hot stove. Why would you do it for an adult?
To draw a parallel. If you have a child or pet, you don't use pain motivators to attempt train them. It doesn't work. The few exceptions are "imminent danger" like reaching for a hot stove. Why would you do it for an adult?
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Amazing, that a Specialist would speak of discipline. The loss of discipline started with the Drill Sergeant in the 90s. They have become "baby sitters" instead of disciplinarians and the Officers wonder why NCOs are weak. I agree discipline should be brought back and not just in Infantry-type units either. The soldiers in support units are becoming like civilian jobs, with much back talk and gossip going on. Do we really need to talk about fraternization in those units. Commanders and Senior NCOs need to rethink this - I'm not talking about beatings or hazings either, but corrective discipline.
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