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LTC Vindman retires, was he right or wrong? What about the second and third order effects?
Aside from the usually partisan (and superficial) comments regarding LTC (R) Vindman, is there a lesson to be learned here? We had a sitting US senator holding up promotion for 1000 senior officers to allow for his promotion. Whistleblowing. Polarizing politics and the politicalization of the military seems to be here for the duration. While the retired could easily just take pot shots from Ft. Living Room, here's my question. How can currently serving members truly remain apolitical? In a world where one callus post can end your career, use some judgment if you elect to weigh in. Was he right? Would you have done the same? Was he dead wrong?
Aside from the usually partisan (and superficial) comments regarding LTC (R) Vindman, is there a lesson to be learned here? We had a sitting US senator holding up promotion for 1000 senior officers to allow for his promotion. Whistleblowing. Polarizing politics and the politicalization of the military seems to be here for the duration. While the retired could easily just take pot shots from Ft. Living Room, here's my question. How can currently serving members truly remain apolitical? In a world where one callus post can end your career, use some judgment if you elect to weigh in. Was he right? Would you have done the same? Was he dead wrong?
ar-BB17s1rL
Posted from msn.com
Lessons Learned
Political Correctness
Congress
COL
Social Media
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 285
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SPC Michael Tierney
Sorry Orlando, Don Trump is the traitor to the country. Perhaps some President, in the past, tried to bribe a foreign country by withholding aid that had been authorized by Congress but none that I know of. Trump was trying to promote one of his many conspiracy theories with his heavy handed effort at bribery. Do all of you who think Vindeman was a bad person think bribery is a good thing?
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SPC Mark Marquette
PO2 Don Scott - oly O THOSE WHO LOVE HIS ARROGANCE, DISREGARD FOR ANYTHING "PRINCIPLED", FOR-THE-GOOD-OF"... AHH!! DAMNED CAPS!! Sorry!!)
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SPC Mark Marquette
PO2 Don Scott - What? Can't read caps?
"Only those who love his arrogance, disregard for anything principled, for the good of ANYONE but HIM!"
"Only those who love his arrogance, disregard for anything principled, for the good of ANYONE but HIM!"
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If indeed, the LTC had 100% confirmation of the information he “overheard”, I could maybe see him being in the right. However, he conveyed hearsay...under oath.
Also, I’m pretty certain his security clearance was either TS/SCI or TS/SAP...of which, by running his mouth for his 5 mins of fame...he violated.
This LTC had a history of poor leadership and bad decisions. He was a “FUMU” officer.
Also, I’m pretty certain his security clearance was either TS/SCI or TS/SAP...of which, by running his mouth for his 5 mins of fame...he violated.
This LTC had a history of poor leadership and bad decisions. He was a “FUMU” officer.
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SGT Tim. Wilson
PVT Brian Desormeaux Considering the resource you’re are using. I really wish Rally had a MajorLaugh option for responses!
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PVT Brian Desormeaux
SGT Tim. Wilson I know...Breitbart isn’t the most viable resource...in my defense, it was late at night and the quickest turn around. Who would have thought that anyone would still be beating this dead horse 5 months later.
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SGT Tim. Wilson
PVT Brian Desormeaux True and i was kinda surprised at the dates on it since this is the first time it has popped up on my feed.
But I get to reading and .....
But I get to reading and .....
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Sgt Den OBrien
SGT Tim. Wilson - Yes. " The View" , msnbc, and CNN have much more reliability and credibility.
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A coup orchestrated by Democratic operatives. Vindman should have kept his mouth shut. Or reported it to the chain of command for action.
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SGT Adam Crow
CPL Kenneth Servello Jr - I'm not a "dem" you anti-American partisan hack. Nice assumption though, just because I don't like your chosen team doesn't mean I'm the other teams biggest fan. Learn to think for yourself.
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CPL Kenneth Servello Jr
SGT Adam Crow wow douchebag..you're wrong on all accounts..assumption? I went off the ignorant post you left as proof a pog like yourself shouldn't post..you sound like biden. And how about you take your own advice..you desperately need it.
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SPC Mark Marquette
CPL Kenneth Servello Jr - WTH??! The man was ON THE PHONE during the call! THAT was his JOB!
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Vindman was 100% right to retire, and he’s lucky he was allowed to retire. All of the problems he encountered he invited upon himself. And he violated the first rule of thumb: he knew what procedures to follow & he chose to ignore them.
On top of that, he violated another convention: he deliberately lied about the President’s phone call, and that is unforgivable.
As for the instigator & Obama loyalist Eric Ciaramella & his pal, Adam Schiff: let’s hope those two are permanently under a microscope. Vindman can blame them, not President Trump, for short-circuiting his career.
On top of that, he violated another convention: he deliberately lied about the President’s phone call, and that is unforgivable.
As for the instigator & Obama loyalist Eric Ciaramella & his pal, Adam Schiff: let’s hope those two are permanently under a microscope. Vindman can blame them, not President Trump, for short-circuiting his career.
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SFC Jim Ruether
When you admit you falsely testified at an impeachment trial isn't that a Traitorous Act and it should be punishable, he should have lost his rank, served time and lost his retirement the traitorous dog!
When you admit you falsely testified isn't that a D.C. version of lying to the court? Vindman is a little worm, a puke, a liar and a cheat. He obviously crawled back under rock he was hiding under.
When you admit you falsely testified isn't that a D.C. version of lying to the court? Vindman is a little worm, a puke, a liar and a cheat. He obviously crawled back under rock he was hiding under.
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SFC Jim Ruether
Vindman should be shot! I wonder what other anti-American faction he will align himself next!
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The LTC LIED to Congress and the American people. He later admitted that he lied! This goes far beyond presenting a legitimate concern to his chain of command. He wilfully, wantonly and deliberately gave aid and comfort to the enemies of the United States, foreign and domestic.
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HN Sheldon Nadler
Major, read the transcript from the hearing and listen to Vindman's lame ass excuse. It was an opinion and he stated such during the hearing! Get your head out of your ass!
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To put it bluntly, Vindman had absolutely zero firsthand knowledge of the situation, and could only testify to hearsay. So since he had nothing of actual value to add to ANY type of legitimate legal proceeding, he should have brought his concerns to either his civilian chain of command, military chain of command, or directly to the president himself for clarification of the situation. What Vindman did do should be considered nothing less than politically motivated treason. As for the remaining apolitical while in uniform, it's simple. Stay off of social media while in uniform, use your brain about what you're posting, and teach the service members under your command to do the same. Furthermore, if you're in doubt about whether or not something is ok to post, don't frigging post the nonsense. It's not hard concept to understand. Or atleast it wouldn't be outside of this kinder, gentler, weaker, too-sensitive-to-do-your-job military. As leaders, you should be teaching your service members to toughen up and grow a spine instead of holding their hands and telling them that their feelings matter more than the cold hard facts of this world.
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SFC Barbara Layman
" As leaders, you should be teaching your service members to toughen up and grow a spine instead of holding their hands and telling them that their feelings matter more than the cold hard facts of this world."
Wholeheartedly agree. The world is a cold, cruel place - especially if you aren't properly prepared for it.
Wholeheartedly agree. The world is a cold, cruel place - especially if you aren't properly prepared for it.
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SPC Kent Laughlin
lots of Trump haters on here much like on twatter and they are giving vinederhole kudos for talking schitt to congress ..
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SPC Mark Marquette
SPC Kent Laughlin - Yeah, you are SUCH an upstanding, shining example of a Trump supporter: vile comments, infantile wordplay (Oh, so clever...); and, validating that lving Trump is ALL the matters.
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If I thought a senior had crossed the line, I'd give him a chance to fix it. If he/she didn't fix it in short order, hold my beer and give me a whistle. Nothing sucks as bad as knowing you should have done the right thing and did not.
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Maj John Bell
SSG Dr Pedro Deliz - The quantities of materiel, supplies and equipment in the Strategic National Reserve (SNR) Stockpiles are not determined by imminent threat analysis. There is an estimated need to adequately buy necessary time for ramped up production, based on a most likely event. Then calculations are made accounting for:
_Normal US current demand,
_Potential increased response demand
_Current US domestic production capabilities,
_Lead time to redirect US Domestic Production under the Stafford Act
_Total capacity of US emergency demand once American manufacturing comes on line
_Potential international sourcing from friendly nations if they do not have their own increased demand.
There is little likelihood that that SNR number changed significantly between the Obama administration in 2009 and the Trump administration in 2020
Most manufacturers use "Just-in-time" inventory control for NORMAL demand. Maintaining large stocks of inventory that are not turning over is an expensive proposition for a private company. One simply does not call 3M in January and say I'd like 30 million M95 masks next week, or next month. Looking at it with 20:20 hindsight had the Chinese government and the World Health Organization been entirely open and candid there was not enough time or money to replenish the the SNR stockpile from late November/early December to January/February.
In 2009, after the increased demand from H1N1 had dissipated, the M95 mask faucet should have been left on and within 2-3 years the National stock pile should have been back to 30 million masks, not 30,000. That is all before the end of the Obama administration.
Whether or not the Trump administration was briefed on the level in the of M95 masks in the SNR is irrelevant. Within a matter of 1-2 months after assuming power, the shortage should have been known to Trump cabinet level officials and the faucet should have been turned on. It was, but not at a serious rate. Had that been done, the SNR level would have been at or near target levels when COVID-19 was upon us, some 3 years later.
When it comes to budgetary items it takes more than "the President says so." It takes budgetary approval from the House of Representatives. Make no mistake 30 million masks is a budgetary item. The Trump administration and the Pelosi House of Representatives have fought tooth and nail over every budget proposal. The experts weren't just talking to the President. They were talking to Congress. Neither branch of government understood the gravity of the problem and thus they both did not have an appropriate sense of urgency.
If you aren't interested in executive powers, are you in favor of a President disregarding Constitutional restrictions whenever he thinks it is necessary?
Or
If your problem lies with his rhetoric what would a different message have produced on the American publics preparedness? Would we have started panic buying toilet paper and hand sanitizer sooner? What part in that lack of serious messaging do leaders in the Democrat Party share when Speaker Pelosi makes a very public tour of San Francisco's China town to point out President Trump's "fear mongering" and xenophobia, Or Mayor De Blasio encouraging people to go out and experience the theater and night life of a safe NYC. etc. etc. etc. The nationally recognized Democrat leadership's message did not change until well into April, about the same time President Trump's message was starting to change.
The State Governor's have always had access to the wisdom of Federal agency experts. The Governors have their own state public health experts. PLUS they actually have Constitutional authority, within the limits set by their state Constitutions and State legislatures, to deal with public health emergencies.
Your use of 600,000 children was, I believe, used out of context. The way you applied it you made it sound like there was 600,000 confirmed cases around the opening of schools, not since the advent of the virus in America. Big difference in how many infectious child vectors running around between 600,000 since the advent and the currently active cases. The vast majority of those 600,000 are no longer infectious.
By now if you are a high risk potential COVID-19 victim and don't know it, you are non-compos mentis. I haven't seen 3 of 4 my grand kids except through a living room window equipped with an intercom since April. We live next door to each other. I used to be their after school care program, they helped with farm chores. The 4th grandchild lives with my wife and I. He is at high risk with a chronic respiratory condition, so his mom and dad made a tough choice. We were able to solve our problem without government intervention. Not everybody can, and that is where government efforts should be focused, not on ineffective, broad brush, eye wash solutions.
_Normal US current demand,
_Potential increased response demand
_Current US domestic production capabilities,
_Lead time to redirect US Domestic Production under the Stafford Act
_Total capacity of US emergency demand once American manufacturing comes on line
_Potential international sourcing from friendly nations if they do not have their own increased demand.
There is little likelihood that that SNR number changed significantly between the Obama administration in 2009 and the Trump administration in 2020
Most manufacturers use "Just-in-time" inventory control for NORMAL demand. Maintaining large stocks of inventory that are not turning over is an expensive proposition for a private company. One simply does not call 3M in January and say I'd like 30 million M95 masks next week, or next month. Looking at it with 20:20 hindsight had the Chinese government and the World Health Organization been entirely open and candid there was not enough time or money to replenish the the SNR stockpile from late November/early December to January/February.
In 2009, after the increased demand from H1N1 had dissipated, the M95 mask faucet should have been left on and within 2-3 years the National stock pile should have been back to 30 million masks, not 30,000. That is all before the end of the Obama administration.
Whether or not the Trump administration was briefed on the level in the of M95 masks in the SNR is irrelevant. Within a matter of 1-2 months after assuming power, the shortage should have been known to Trump cabinet level officials and the faucet should have been turned on. It was, but not at a serious rate. Had that been done, the SNR level would have been at or near target levels when COVID-19 was upon us, some 3 years later.
When it comes to budgetary items it takes more than "the President says so." It takes budgetary approval from the House of Representatives. Make no mistake 30 million masks is a budgetary item. The Trump administration and the Pelosi House of Representatives have fought tooth and nail over every budget proposal. The experts weren't just talking to the President. They were talking to Congress. Neither branch of government understood the gravity of the problem and thus they both did not have an appropriate sense of urgency.
If you aren't interested in executive powers, are you in favor of a President disregarding Constitutional restrictions whenever he thinks it is necessary?
Or
If your problem lies with his rhetoric what would a different message have produced on the American publics preparedness? Would we have started panic buying toilet paper and hand sanitizer sooner? What part in that lack of serious messaging do leaders in the Democrat Party share when Speaker Pelosi makes a very public tour of San Francisco's China town to point out President Trump's "fear mongering" and xenophobia, Or Mayor De Blasio encouraging people to go out and experience the theater and night life of a safe NYC. etc. etc. etc. The nationally recognized Democrat leadership's message did not change until well into April, about the same time President Trump's message was starting to change.
The State Governor's have always had access to the wisdom of Federal agency experts. The Governors have their own state public health experts. PLUS they actually have Constitutional authority, within the limits set by their state Constitutions and State legislatures, to deal with public health emergencies.
Your use of 600,000 children was, I believe, used out of context. The way you applied it you made it sound like there was 600,000 confirmed cases around the opening of schools, not since the advent of the virus in America. Big difference in how many infectious child vectors running around between 600,000 since the advent and the currently active cases. The vast majority of those 600,000 are no longer infectious.
By now if you are a high risk potential COVID-19 victim and don't know it, you are non-compos mentis. I haven't seen 3 of 4 my grand kids except through a living room window equipped with an intercom since April. We live next door to each other. I used to be their after school care program, they helped with farm chores. The 4th grandchild lives with my wife and I. He is at high risk with a chronic respiratory condition, so his mom and dad made a tough choice. We were able to solve our problem without government intervention. Not everybody can, and that is where government efforts should be focused, not on ineffective, broad brush, eye wash solutions.
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CPL Kenneth Servello Jr
Maj John Bell besides the fact he claimed he heard it firsthand, then recanted under questioning that he wasn't?
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Maj John Bell
CPL Kenneth Servello Jr - Can you cite a source, preferably with video of the questioning to which you refer?
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SPC Sean Kennedy
Lol “hold my beer and give me a whistle” nice I immediately heard “front! Back! Go!” In my head with the whistle :D
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Suspended Profile
Vindman’s place as a military officer was to follow the orders of the CIC. It is not his place to ignore the chain of command because he disagreed with the President. Greater men and officers than he will ever be have forgotten their place and were sent packing. Recall a general who decided he knew better than then President Truman? Vindman is lucky to have been able to simply retire.
CAPT (Join to see)
There is a difference between General officers and the rest of us. For example by law, as a General, if you are not occupying a 4-star billet, you get to retire. That is not the case with O-6 and below.
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Suspended Profile
Note that I said "greater men and officers than he [Vindman]..." :-)
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He was 100% wrong. He was there to advise the president on military matters, yet because the president chose to execute his own foreign policy as opposed to what the State Department recommended, he leaked classified information to those outside the NSC. Here is a little hint for you Mr Vindman, the president is the only one that determines US foreign policy. Not the State Department and certainly not you. You failed to uphold your oath.
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SFC Jim Ruether
I think the first thing our president should have done was to purge his cabinet and found people he knew and trusted to surround him with accurate and timely intel.
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So retired and sitting here in Ft. Living Room I will offer my opinion on LTC(R) Vindman . He was a mediocre officer who had language skills and turned "political". Near as I can tell he never held company or battalion command....which for me is an acid test of an officers' ability to lead. During his entire career he was the typical staff officer making recommendations and having no accountability for their consequences. I have met many like him (Someone should ferret out his assignment officer and find out how he got the job at NSC.) He retired I think because he knew he would not be trusted by either his contemporaries or his superiors. He will not be missed...at least by me.
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