Posted on Oct 13, 2017
SFC S2 Intelligence Ncoic
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Maj John Bell
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Edited 3 y ago
Out of uniform and off-base, nothing identifying him or her as a service member; I'd let it pass.

In uniform or actively signaling that he/she is a service member, I'd identify myself and ask to see ID. Then I would ask their unit, the unit's phone number, and the unit's senior SNCO. Finally I would tell them that I would be referring the matter to their senior SNCO, and advise them that they probably want to make sure that SNCO knows before 0800 on the next work day. Because I will by 0815. And God help them if they've lied about what unit they belong to because I will track them down.
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CPO Michael Burns
CPO Michael Burns
15 d
CPO Michael Burns Can’t seem to edit from my phone. Reverse the words Ceremonies and Customs. Chapter 12 has specifics of the National Anthem. And this one may be a SECNAV approval instead of CNO. I’m deployed as a contractor so connectivity isn’t great…
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Maj John Bell
Maj John Bell
15 d
CPO Michael Burns - I stand corrected. Thank you CPO Michael Burns I was a Marine so your US Navy Regulation citation applies to me and mine.

When questioned, the other services have cited the U.S. Flag Manual, which does not mandate appropriate honors when in civilian attire, off-base. In addition, the U.S. Flag Manual specifically states that its purpose is to promulgate uniformity and carries no punitive authority.

US Navy Regulations, Chapter 12 [please see link]

" 1205. Procedure During Playing of Nationsl Anthem.
1. Whenever the National Anthem is played, all naval service personnel not in formation shall stand at attention and face the nations ensign. In the event that the national ensign is not displayed, they shall face the source of the music. When covered, they shall come to the salute at the first note of the anthem, and shall remain at the salute until the last note of the anthem."

https://www.secnav.navy.mil/doni/us%20navy%20regulations/forms/allitems.aspx
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SFC Barbara Layman
SFC Barbara Layman
4 d
"Out of uniform and off-base, nothing identifying him or her as a service member; I'd let it pass."

If this occurs out of uniform on or off base, the individual should be made aware of the unacceptable action. There may well be others in the area who know him/her and that they are, in fact, uniformed military personnel. Failure to act acknowledges the behavior and others would possibly follow his/her lead.
In any situation, you NEVER know who may be watching. Your failure to act, Major, might indicate to onlookers, who also know you and who you are, that they can get by because you allow infractions to skate.
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Maj John Bell
Maj John Bell
4 d
SFC Barbara Layman - If you read the post immediately above yours, you will see that I acknowledged a correction offered by CPO Michael Burns. For all Naval personnel, Sailors and Marines, there is a General Order which covers the matter.

If I knew the person kneeling was a Sailor or Marine, I would:
_correct them on the spot upon completion of the National Anthem,
_ask for ID,
_inform that that I will be letting my counterpart in their chain of command know and
_suggest that they inform the 1st NCO/SNCO above them in the chain of command that there may be inbound on the way.

I have not seen any citation offered by any members of the other services that indicates a general order (GO) exists for their service. Since the GO that covers honors to the colors is an ALNAV, and does not reference a SecDEF instruction. I do not know that such a GO exists for the other services and in a disciplinary matter it would be inappropriate to demand that service members of the other services meet the standard for Naval personnel.

If you have served in joint commands you should be aware that there exist quite a few differences between the customs, courtesies and traditions of the different services. Examples:
_Sailors, Marines and Naval officers do not salute when uncovered,
_Sailors Marines and Naval officers only remain covered indoors when standing post or under arms.

On joint assignments I had a few pissing contests with Jr officers, SNCO's and NCO's of other services who took disciplinary action into their own hands with my Marines on these issues. Not being fully aware of your services' customs, courtesies, traditions and GO's, I'm not going to impose my service's customs, courtesies, traditions and GO's on your soldiers.

If I know an infraction has taken place I deal with it. If uncertain that an infraction has taken case, I find out what the standard is. I don't embarrass myself and damage my credibility/authority by jumping froggy. How about you?
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SMSgt Thor Merich
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Depends on the circumstances.

Off duty and out of uniform, we would have a quiet conversation.

On duty and/or in uniform, he would have a really bad day.
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SPC Wheeled Vehicle Mechanic
SPC (Join to see)
4 mo
SSG Michael McCalla - Well kid even out of uniform u pretty much know who are the soldiers and who are not. And when ur in the military u are ALWAYS on the clock. WHY well kid cause war is not on any clock and can start at any time.
And if ur dissing America in any way u should not be getting a pay check for what is thumbing ur nose at our country, every soldier current and past. There are a very limited amount of things that cannot be allowed even in a free country and dissing what represents it is the SAME as dissing the Constitution. Get out of here
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Maj John Bell
Maj John Bell
4 mo
SPC (Join to see) - "...And when ur in the military u are ALWAYS on the clock."

Absolute nonsense.
_Ever consumed an alcoholic between taking the oath and end of active service? According to your flawed understanding your guilty of violating Article 112 of the UCMJ.
_Slept, Article 113.

Exercising your 1st Amendment rights is not the same thing as "dissing the Constitution."

You should take the time to read the posts in this thread. Because your point of view is out of line with the Judicial opinions handed down by the Supreme Court and The Military Court of Appeals... almost like you're "dissing" what the Constitution has to say about judicial review and the role of the Supreme court.
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CPT Special Forces Officer
CPT (Join to see)
4 mo
SGT (Join to see) - The answer is a balancing act between what is normal practice, what should happen, and if you know where he likes to get drunk.
Why do the uncivil always expect others to behave in a civilized manner?
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SSgt Ron Simpson
SSgt Ron Simpson
3 mo
We did not give our most solumn oath to the National Anthem or the Flag. We gave it to Our Constitution.
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COL William Oseles
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If a soldier kneels during the National Anthem he or she can be Courts Martialed.
Free Speech in the military is constrained by the UCMJ.

DOD Directive 1344.10 - POLITICAL ACTIVITIES BY MEMBERS OF THE ARMED FORCES ON ACTIVE DUTY, extend these same requirements to all individuals on active duty.
Active duty enlisted members and warrant officers who violate these provisions can be charged under Article 92 of the UCMJ, Failure to Obey an Order or Regulation.
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Sgt Lelyn Minkel
Sgt Lelyn Minkel
3 mo
oh you know why he is doing it, esp in motion
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Sgt Lelyn Minkel
Sgt Lelyn Minkel
3 mo
don refused to go in- and he is their hero --
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SSgt Ron Simpson
SSgt Ron Simpson
3 mo
We did not give our most solumn oath to the National Anthem or the Flag. We gave it to Our Constitution.
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Maj John Bell
Maj John Bell
16 d
COL William Oseles
DoD Directive 1344.10 does not address rendering or failing to render honors to the flag directly, nor to my understanding indirectly. On what specific paragraph and subparagraph are you basing your opinion?
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