Posted on Mar 30, 2015
What, if anything, distinguishes war from murder?
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"War is murder."
That is an opinion expressed over the weekend by a member of RallyPoint.
He is not alone -- I have heard a similar sentiment expressed by many pacifists. In addition, looking at a lot of today's entertainment (movies and books), it is readily apparent that a lot of people (to include a lot of veterans) do not see any difference between the conduct of war and mass murder.
Do you agree that there is no difference? If you disagree, how would you explain the difference? Does the form of war make a difference -- e.g., is it somehow less murderous when your enemy has a more sporting chance?
That is an opinion expressed over the weekend by a member of RallyPoint.
He is not alone -- I have heard a similar sentiment expressed by many pacifists. In addition, looking at a lot of today's entertainment (movies and books), it is readily apparent that a lot of people (to include a lot of veterans) do not see any difference between the conduct of war and mass murder.
Do you agree that there is no difference? If you disagree, how would you explain the difference? Does the form of war make a difference -- e.g., is it somehow less murderous when your enemy has a more sporting chance?
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Ethics
Morals
Edited 9 y ago
Posted 9 y ago
Responses: 42
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Nonsense. If you don't study history, and you don't believe in the concept of a nation-state, and you don't recognize that some philosophies and ideas (ie, the rule of law, equality of opportunity, liberty, freedom of speech/religion/press) can only be gained through a society governed by these ideas, then maybe war is murder.
Study history. It is full, completely full of horrible, bad centuries. Centuries of oppression, murder, rape...rule by force and violence...lives of survival and death. There are ideas worth fighting for, even going to war over, if it prevents a return to those bad old days.
Study "Just War Theory". Not all wars are just...and that is a debate worth having. This idea that war is murder is promulgated only by those who have never studied history and believe nothing is more valuable than their own skinny lives. They would rather be slaves than fight for their children to be free.
Study history. It is full, completely full of horrible, bad centuries. Centuries of oppression, murder, rape...rule by force and violence...lives of survival and death. There are ideas worth fighting for, even going to war over, if it prevents a return to those bad old days.
Study "Just War Theory". Not all wars are just...and that is a debate worth having. This idea that war is murder is promulgated only by those who have never studied history and believe nothing is more valuable than their own skinny lives. They would rather be slaves than fight for their children to be free.
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Col Joseph Lenertz
Thanks Cadet Chase! I had to memorize that one too, a hundred years ago. USAFA '85. Of course, Mr. Mill said it much more eloquently.
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War is the application of politics through Force.
That can include Killing, and it can include Murder but it does not make it Murder.
It is a logical fallacy trap (False Equivalence).
But let's start at the micro level vice the macro.
Are the two statements below equal:
"Thou shall not kill" and "Thou shall not murder"
I say not, because sometimes killing is justified as in the defense of self, others, or hunting for survival. Those things do not make someone a murderer. Just as killing to eat is not murder, nor does it make a hunter a murderer.
Now, can murder occur in war? Yes. However, US Policy has always been to minimize loss of civilian life. Not all countries share the same philosophy however.
What it really boils down to is an oversimplification of a very complex subject. "War is murder, and it isn't"
That can include Killing, and it can include Murder but it does not make it Murder.
It is a logical fallacy trap (False Equivalence).
But let's start at the micro level vice the macro.
Are the two statements below equal:
"Thou shall not kill" and "Thou shall not murder"
I say not, because sometimes killing is justified as in the defense of self, others, or hunting for survival. Those things do not make someone a murderer. Just as killing to eat is not murder, nor does it make a hunter a murderer.
Now, can murder occur in war? Yes. However, US Policy has always been to minimize loss of civilian life. Not all countries share the same philosophy however.
What it really boils down to is an oversimplification of a very complex subject. "War is murder, and it isn't"
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TSgt (Join to see)
No the two statements are not equal.
Thou shall not kill is a statement of totality that says the extinguishing of life in any circumstances is reprehensible and shall be punished.
Thou shall not murder only puts the onus on the deliberate termination of life made by an individual that chooses to strike as the aggressor whether pre-meditated, an emotional outburst, or an opportunistic strike against someone with their back turned.
The difference is that murder is (roughly): "I killed them for me!" (Because I could, because I wanted to, because I wanted what they had, because I thought it would help ME). It is the short-sighted, self-centeredness that makes murder such a reprehensible act.
Thou shall not kill is a statement of totality that says the extinguishing of life in any circumstances is reprehensible and shall be punished.
Thou shall not murder only puts the onus on the deliberate termination of life made by an individual that chooses to strike as the aggressor whether pre-meditated, an emotional outburst, or an opportunistic strike against someone with their back turned.
The difference is that murder is (roughly): "I killed them for me!" (Because I could, because I wanted to, because I wanted what they had, because I thought it would help ME). It is the short-sighted, self-centeredness that makes murder such a reprehensible act.
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CSM Ralph Hernandez
Couldn't have said it any better. Thank you A1C Button. That's what NCO's are made of. Good luck in your future endeavors.
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Killing under the Law of Combat is legal and murdering someone is not legal?
Majority of the time you are killing the enemy defending yourself or one of your fellow Soldiers. Even conducting an offensive operation like an attack or raid you are killing in self defense, predetermined strike on an enemy that intends on doing harm to you or your fellow Soldiers.
You can argue justification all you want but when you get down to brass tacks, it's kill or be killed.
Majority of the time you are killing the enemy defending yourself or one of your fellow Soldiers. Even conducting an offensive operation like an attack or raid you are killing in self defense, predetermined strike on an enemy that intends on doing harm to you or your fellow Soldiers.
You can argue justification all you want but when you get down to brass tacks, it's kill or be killed.
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SFC Terry Murphy
Full Definition of MURDER
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: the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought
Key word, UNLAWFULLY. Since as a soldier, we are at war, the unlawful aspect is not there.
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: the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought
Key word, UNLAWFULLY. Since as a soldier, we are at war, the unlawful aspect is not there.
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CPL Jay Freeman
We sign up for the jobs we want to do and know the facts that going to war means someone is going to die there goal is to kill us for there country and we need to defend our selves since the powers that be send us into harms way each war has a reason or perpus learn to embrace the enevitable do you job to the best of your ability so your brothers and sisters in arms may come back home to there loved ones. If you signed up in a combat M.O.S because you thought it was cool or for college money you need to get out and be supply or desk jockey but do not dirty my job with your I don't want to kill someone attitude. If this was the way you felt at anytime pick something diffrent. Rant over
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CPL Jay Freeman
I agree with your statement but I think killing goes much further than just the combat arms MOSs. The great military machine churns to support the folks that are pulling the trigger. The supply clerk that orders the 550 cord that ties down the optics, the culinary specialist that prepares meals for the trigger puller, the Air Force pilot that flies the chow and bullets in for the trigger puller. Everyone in the military is a killer or at the minimum an accomplice.
I agree with your statement but I think killing goes much further than just the combat arms MOSs. The great military machine churns to support the folks that are pulling the trigger. The supply clerk that orders the 550 cord that ties down the optics, the culinary specialist that prepares meals for the trigger puller, the Air Force pilot that flies the chow and bullets in for the trigger puller. Everyone in the military is a killer or at the minimum an accomplice.
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CPL Jay Freeman
I agree and in no way meet to diminish those roles as I know they are also trained in fire arms to be able to protect them selves if needed I had many friends in the support roles but I don't really think that it ways as hard on them with the shoot don't shoot position. And there abstract role in the process of taking there life I just don't see how it would way as heavy on them as it sits with the person who did.
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