Posted on Feb 19, 2014
You can't "smoke" soldiers anymore. So... More article 15s?
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<p><span style="line-height: 17px; font-size: 14px;">It's copied and pasted from APRT.COM but it's all there in the FM </span></p><p><span style="line-height: 17px; font-size: 14px;"><br></span></p><p><span style="line-height: 17px; font-size: 14px;">FM 7-22 Para 5-15. When exercise is used for corrective training or corrective action, it is often performed incorrectly, promoting </span><a href="http://www.armyaprt.com/prt-exercises/overtraining-syndrome.html"><span style="line-height: 17px; font-size: 14px;"><u><font color="#0000ff">overtraining syndrome</font></u></span></a><span style="line-height: 17px; font-size: 14px;">, and overuse injuries. Often corrective action mimics “smoke sessions,” punishing Soldiers with little or no corrective value. Consideration must be given to the number of times per day exercises are used for corrective action for individual Soldiers and groups of Soldiers to avoid the cumulative effect and limit the potential for overtraining syndrome. The following guidelines should be followed when employing exercise as corrective action.</span></p><p><span style="line-height: 17px; font-size: 14px;"><br></span></p><p><span style="line-height: 17px; font-size: 14px;">Only the following exercises should be selected for performance of corrective action.<br> Rower.<br> Squat bender.<br> Windmill.<br> Prone row.<br> Push-up.<br> V-up.<br> Leg tuck and twist.<br> Supine bicycle.<br> Swimmer.<br> 8-count push-up.</span></p><p><span style="line-height: 17px; font-size: 14px;"><br></span></p><p><span style="line-height: 17px; font-size: 14px;">Only one of the above exercises may be selected for each corrective action. The number of repetitions should not exceed FIVE for any one of the exercises listed above</span></p><p><span style="line-height: 17px; font-size: 14px;"><br></span></p><p><span style="line-height: 17px; font-size: 14px;">So there are only a few different options here, since making a soldier do 5 reps is a joke, and wont teach anything. </span></p><p><span style="line-height: 17px; font-size: 14px;"><br></span></p><p><span style="line-height: 17px; font-size: 14px;">Does that mean we should just write up 4856's for everything wrong a soldiers does? I understand the Army's worried about hazing, but taking away an effect means as punishment and leaving us with the only option to write up soldiers. </span></p><div class="pta-link-card"><div class="pta-link-card-picture"><img src="http://www.armyaprt.com/images/APFT-logo.png"></div><div class="pta-link-card-content"><div class="pta-link-card-title"><a href="http://www.armyaprt.com/prt-exercises/overtraining-syndrome.html" target="_blank">Army Overtraining Syndrome</a></div><div class="pta-link-card-description">Causes Of Overtraining Syndrome And Overuse Injuries. Safe progression for performance improvement is complex, involving many variables that impact success</div></div><div style="clear: both;"></div><div class="pta-box-hide"><i class="icon-remove"></i></div></div>
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Article 15
Article 15
Posted 10 y ago
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In cadence, Exercise! 1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8...9 -1! I have been out over 20 years but the crime should still fit the punishment IMO. Counseling by "smoking" a soldier is not PC now I guess. It worked on me as a private and for me as a NCO, this is how sissified our country has become.
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SSG (Join to see)
While I agree with the statement that Soldiers don't take counselings seriously...you don't need 3 Counselings to impose UCMJ.
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SFC (Join to see)
SFC (Join to see) - I agree with every damn thing you just stated. I had the crap smoked out of me growing up through the ranks, and I consider myself very obedient and disciplined. And I never mess up!
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MSgt John McGowan
SGT. The total amount of Art 15's in the Army surprised me. If to many I'd given out they lose the purpose of the Art 15. Maybe this stems from PC,
I haven't any clue.. is the Army that bad or leadership lacking? To a old timer it looks to be both. Anything bad on your records back in the 60's and 70's would kill you for a promotion to a SNCO. They went back 10 years on records. Are maybe the military has changed that much.
I haven't any clue.. is the Army that bad or leadership lacking? To a old timer it looks to be both. Anything bad on your records back in the 60's and 70's would kill you for a promotion to a SNCO. They went back 10 years on records. Are maybe the military has changed that much.
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SPC John Tacetta
I got "smoked" plenty in basic, less in AIT and never thereafter while completing my 4 year enlistment. There are plenty of shitty details while on permanent duty assignment for those who step on their cocks.
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<p>Great responses on here but I agree with SFC Pate:</p><p>"If your training does not address the deficiency, it is not corrective. If it does not help the soldier learn, it is not training. " </p><p><br></p><p>What is the goal of your SMOKE session? Think of that - is it punishment or just getting the Soldiers attention. If your pissed off and making them do ____ its punishment.</p><p><br></p><p>Saluting ever Officer as they enter the DFAC for not saluting may be entertaining but it is not corrective training. It is embarrassing for the Soldier and truthfully I think a weak response to the offense. It could legally be the right corrective action but accomplished nothing. </p><p><br></p><p>As another NCO here said "1000 words essay on army values (or any other important topic)... That would be Customs and Courtesies.</p><p><br></p><p>My ramblings please excuse:</p><p><br></p><p>For those who ever served with me: Have I just dropped a Soldier or took a corrective action that really did not pertain to the offense. YES! But it was not harmful or disrespectful. Drop and push while I explain what you did wrong - they usually understood what I was trying to say and was not a SMOKE session or unprofessional. Probably in line with guidance even though at that time I did not realize it. </p><p><br></p><p>Hey someone has to cut the grass: Guess who just was selected for that detail. Many more examples but there are things done or need done and there are corrective actions that do not cross the line and diminish the Soldiers dignity. Those may not meet the exact context but are respectful and meet the INTENT.</p><p><br></p><p>Counseling is Key: There is sooooooooo much that could be accomplished with proper counseling and it is the WORST thing we do. You may say you do it but take 20 Soldiers and look at their packet. Only counseling Soldiers when they do something wrong is not counseling. Some of what I said above is not corrective training but if you counsel and explain why they do these things it could be. I will let you do ____ once you accomplish ____. Its the plan of action and follow up part of the counseling we blow off.</p><p><br></p><p>Finally: Why more article 15s? The offense needs to match the punishment. If the offense does not warrant a AR15 then no. How many have lost pass privileges and truly know that taking them away is corrective training not punishment? Restriction is punishment - they are different. ANOTHER topic I will leave alone.</p><p><br></p>
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SPC (Join to see)
Excellent points made command sergeant major not to mention the "smoking" soldiers were going through or shoot that i was going through do you think i respected any of those ncos yes i respected the rank of course but i think that having a soldiers respect is key for combat now dont get me wrong im no deployment expert ive only been in country for one tour but personally i would follow a man i "RESPECT" not only as an nco but man any day to hells gates without question thats my opinion as much as its worth command sergeant major im just the random joe
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SPC (Join to see)
Excellent points made command sergeant major not to mention the "smoking" of soldiers were going through or shoot that i was going through do you think i respected any of those ncos yes i respected the rank of course but i think that having a soldier respect you as a man is key for combat now dont get me wrong im no deployment expert ive only been in country for one tour but personally i would follow a man i "RESPECT" not only as an nco but the man any day to hells gates without question thats my opinion as much as its worth command sergeant major im just the random joe
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SGT Suraj Dave
CSM O'Black I am not sure if you have seen what these new soldiers are like. When I made my SGT about a year ago today, I had a PFC who was constantly late and disrespectful. Smoking him and counseling him did not work. I tried talking to him man to man, figure out why he acts the way he does. I didn't want to jump the gun on UCMJ my first month as an NCO. Some soldiers you need to embarrass to make them learn a lesson.
I put this soldier on time out and made him stand in the corner. Yes, it is incredibly embarrassing, but this soldier learned his lesson and never showed up late or disrespected me again.
I put this soldier on time out and made him stand in the corner. Yes, it is incredibly embarrassing, but this soldier learned his lesson and never showed up late or disrespected me again.
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After reading all the comments on here, i find myself compelled to write something too. As an instructor in AIT, i deal with new soldiers on a daily basis and most of them are fresh out of high school. majority of them have no clue what discipline is. unlike FORSCOM, here in TRADOC we are bound by TR 350-6. that being said, as long as the punishment (corrective training) fits the infraction, we are able to come up with a variety of things for them to do. i believe that physical activities do leave a lasting impression on the soldiers alot better than writting a paper. majority of the crime i use mass punishment to make a point. by holding an entire class responsible for one person's actions, it ensures that everyone will be watching out for eachother. if the action is so severe that i must deal with a soldier one on one, i will sit the soldier down and explain the severity of the situation and put it on paper. i will counsel the soldier and ensure he or she understands why they are receiving their punishment. one example i have is soldiers are not allowed to smoke from 0500-1800. 3 soldiers were caught smoking at the DFAC. i wrote each individual up involved and then recommended UCMJ due to 0 tolorence. that is the most extreme case so far. soldiers here are not allowed to walk around by themselves. they must have a battle buddy at all times. in that instance i will drop the entire class, put them in the front leaning rest and make them go half way down and hold it while i explain what the cause was. for that instance i will hold the entire clas responsible for not looking out for their battle buddies. you have to address the issues on a case by case basis. if you have someone who is constantly screwing up you need to see if there is an underlying problem. dont just fix the surface. this is where most of the leaders have gone wrong these days. most leaders now a days dont care about their soldiers, you must mold these young individuals into the great soldiers you know they can be. dont expect perfection right off the bat. you need to teach, train, coach, and mentor them in order to get the respect, hardwork, and dedication out of them.
this is just my opinion. im sure i will catch some back lash from this but i dont care. these are my thoughts on the situation.
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SFC (Join to see)
yeah but the overuse of Mass punishment can effect things in a negative way. I personally was never a big fan of it past basic training. if Joe messed up Leaders should deal with Joe, I am just a peer of joe's so I have even less resources than you as a NCO so how much of a difference can I make if joe is a knucklehead? this leads to blanket parties and troops taking things into their own hands is that what we want?
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MSG (Join to see)
the reason i use mass punishment is to explain accountability. if this same individual is still screwing up then i will deal with that individual.
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SFC (Join to see)
so you feel that it shouldnt become more individualized after 10 weeks of mass punishment in basic training?
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MSG (Join to see)
theres always going to be "what ifs". majority of the soldiers coming to AIT did not go to basic together. therefor not everyone will be on the same page as the rest of them. in theory everyone is suppose to receive the same training no matter the place they went to basic. but realisticly we know that is not true. part of my reason behind it is to show the entire class that we mean business and this is not a place they can relax and do what they want. most of the time we will get only one or two instances with a class and that is the end of it. you will always have those few individuals that want to be special cases. im not saying my way of doing things is the only way. im sure there are others and/or better ways to handle the situation. this is just how i do it and it seems to work. i dont get overbearing with it or anything like that. i just put enough pressure on so they understand my point of view.
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