Posted on Jun 5, 2014
A "Veteran" after dropping out of boot camp? Where do you draw the line?
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I feel that a woman I know (I will leave it at that for anonymity's sake) is claiming something and taking credit for something that she didn't earn. Personally, I am an honorably discharged disabled veteran, so I feel I have a legitimate gripe here. Anyway, this woman joined the Army a decade or so ago, and quit 2 weeks into boot camp because she couldn't hack it. She claims it was due to a sprained ankle. I know many soldiers that completed boot camp after healing up from a sprained ankle. Anyway, every time Veteran's Day, Memorial Day etc... rolls around she gladly accepts accolade's in person and all over social media and acts like she deserves the title veteran. I just can't get that taste out of my mouth that this creates. At what point can someone claim that title? I figured at the very minimum graduating basic training... any thoughts?
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 119
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SrA Adams, thank you for your service.
I will say this about the "sprained ankle".
In boot camp, way back in '85, we were in our two weeks at the rifle range. It was Pre-Qual day (the day before Qual day) and we had 3 privates go UNQ. Typically, this time is relatively calm during boot camp because the DI's really want the privates to pick up on this skill. But with 3 UNQs, the DI's went ballistic. We were at the barracks, getting smoked and doing the "get upstairs/get downstairs, get out the front hatch, get out the back hatch" drills. During all the trampling, my ankle got run over at my footlocker that we were "emptying into seabags". Ankle was terribly sprained. Required trip to medical, and a return to the unit on crutches with an air cast. The Heavy DI SSgt (name omitted to protect the innocent) asked what the Doc had said, to which I replied "Sir, the Private reports that the Doc said he could qualify, Sir" He cocked his head and smirked and told me that I was not allowed to march in his formation, that I had to keep up and had better F#*KING qualify. The next morning we marched to the range, with me hopping my ass off to keep up with the PLT stepping out. I get to the line and the CWO running the range asked me what the F#*K I was doing on his range, so I told him the same thing. I dropped the crutches and qualified. It was hard as hell, and hurt like the devil, but...I WAS NOT GETTING WASHED BACK, PERIOD. Qualified, hopped my butt back to barracks behind the PLT.
Following quals, we went to the field and were humping packs up and down the road/hills and Mount MotherF#&ker. I hurt, but was keeping up, minus the crutches and air cast that I had quietly discarded. It hurt like hell, but quitting was not an option.
29 years later, still serving.
If you do not finish training because you quit, you are not a veteran. If you get discharged during training because you got hurt to the point of no recovery, I will stand behind you, because sometimes things happen-which is the unfortunate side effect of Hard Training. Sadly there are plenty of potentially outstanding troops that are badly injured and cannot recover.
Nobody told us it would be easy, in fact they told us and proved to us that some would not make it.
As a side note, if you serve honorably in any capacity, you are "my brother/sister in arms". If you choose to be a dirtbag and bring discredit to my military-you have earned the right to forgo such title.
End of rant.
I will say this about the "sprained ankle".
In boot camp, way back in '85, we were in our two weeks at the rifle range. It was Pre-Qual day (the day before Qual day) and we had 3 privates go UNQ. Typically, this time is relatively calm during boot camp because the DI's really want the privates to pick up on this skill. But with 3 UNQs, the DI's went ballistic. We were at the barracks, getting smoked and doing the "get upstairs/get downstairs, get out the front hatch, get out the back hatch" drills. During all the trampling, my ankle got run over at my footlocker that we were "emptying into seabags". Ankle was terribly sprained. Required trip to medical, and a return to the unit on crutches with an air cast. The Heavy DI SSgt (name omitted to protect the innocent) asked what the Doc had said, to which I replied "Sir, the Private reports that the Doc said he could qualify, Sir" He cocked his head and smirked and told me that I was not allowed to march in his formation, that I had to keep up and had better F#*KING qualify. The next morning we marched to the range, with me hopping my ass off to keep up with the PLT stepping out. I get to the line and the CWO running the range asked me what the F#*K I was doing on his range, so I told him the same thing. I dropped the crutches and qualified. It was hard as hell, and hurt like the devil, but...I WAS NOT GETTING WASHED BACK, PERIOD. Qualified, hopped my butt back to barracks behind the PLT.
Following quals, we went to the field and were humping packs up and down the road/hills and Mount MotherF#&ker. I hurt, but was keeping up, minus the crutches and air cast that I had quietly discarded. It hurt like hell, but quitting was not an option.
29 years later, still serving.
If you do not finish training because you quit, you are not a veteran. If you get discharged during training because you got hurt to the point of no recovery, I will stand behind you, because sometimes things happen-which is the unfortunate side effect of Hard Training. Sadly there are plenty of potentially outstanding troops that are badly injured and cannot recover.
Nobody told us it would be easy, in fact they told us and proved to us that some would not make it.
As a side note, if you serve honorably in any capacity, you are "my brother/sister in arms". If you choose to be a dirtbag and bring discredit to my military-you have earned the right to forgo such title.
End of rant.
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MSG (Join to see)
My dad passed away while I was in basic. When I returned to base after emergency leave,, I was asked if I wanted a hardship discharge. I had brothers and sisters to take care of my Mom so I said no. I was set back, but completed basic and retired after twenty seven years.
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PFC (Join to see)
So i went to basic and i got 5 stress fractures while there and ended up with a 5-17 chapter. What would you say for my case? My company literally just went into AIT the week i left
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PFC (Join to see)
Cpl Arwen Bernard I started my chapter process in week 2 or 3. But mine was becuase of 5 stress fractures in my likes that if pushed through can turn into fractures or breaks. So would you still consider me week?
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Donna Bartley
I have a question regarding this. I went to Army basic in Nov 1980 at Fort Jackson,MOS 92Y,training company E-2-2.. Fell and was in the hospital for a week and was sent home no medical d/c only 2 weeks prior to completion. I am now 57 and have severe back arthritis and was told the fall probably set it in motion and I am now on permanent disability. I am not worried about rewards or compensation, just want to know if I can stand, say for instance, at church during Veterans Day ceremony. Don't want to if it is not right and figured this was the best place to ask. That is why I did not even put my association with the military until I know for sure. Did not want to claim something I am not entitled to. Thanks.
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She is a wannabe, a poser...IE a FAKE! I dont know about the Army but in the Marine Corps (Parris Island 1980) we were always referred to as "recruit" (and multiple other less than complimentary names)we were NEVER called "Marine"...the first time I was called Marine was by my Drill Instructor (I STILL hate that man) AFTER I graduated.
Like I said, in the Marines, you arent a Marine until you go thru graduation at the end of training!
Like I said, in the Marines, you arent a Marine until you go thru graduation at the end of training!
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SFC(P) (Join to see)
In the I was told that we don't earn the title of Soldier until after we graduate from AIT, or at least get to our first duty station.
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A few thoughts.
1. While I cannot speak for the other branches, the Marine Corps specifically does not give you "The Title Of Marine" until you graduate Boot Camp. This is also why they refer to you as Recruits, and not Privates, because a Private is an actual rank, and to have rank at all, you must have Earned The Title.
2. Unfortunately, the currently existing version of what was originally the Stolen Valor Act, now says that anyone can SAY, and WEAR, whatever they like about themselves so long as they are not in any way financially gaining by the action. This is obviously something most Veterans disagree with, but the Supreme Court ruled that Freedom of Speech includes Freedom to Lie apparently.
3. That said, there have been tons of "people faking it" all over the Web, and usually to any real service member or veteran, they look very visually incorrect. Which means these people are not only faking it for whatever screwy reasons they have, but they are clearly stupid enough to not think about looking up how a uniform should be properly worn, how a ribbon or medal display should be built, etc, and quite frankly I find that this is evidence enough they wouldn't have an IQ worthy of military entrance.
4. The most common case is where people try to pull off the "I'm a career military person" when they attend their high school reunions. And most of these people tend to use Marine Corps Dress Blues that they quite obviously cant even fit their fat ass or gut into.
5. There are in fact some rules and regulations regarding the when/where a veteran---a real veteran---can wear certain uniforms. Usually it involves some event where such pride/prestige is relevant, or worn in honor of a related event. The fakers tend to ignore these things as well.
Signed --- a Former Marine Infantryman.
1. While I cannot speak for the other branches, the Marine Corps specifically does not give you "The Title Of Marine" until you graduate Boot Camp. This is also why they refer to you as Recruits, and not Privates, because a Private is an actual rank, and to have rank at all, you must have Earned The Title.
2. Unfortunately, the currently existing version of what was originally the Stolen Valor Act, now says that anyone can SAY, and WEAR, whatever they like about themselves so long as they are not in any way financially gaining by the action. This is obviously something most Veterans disagree with, but the Supreme Court ruled that Freedom of Speech includes Freedom to Lie apparently.
3. That said, there have been tons of "people faking it" all over the Web, and usually to any real service member or veteran, they look very visually incorrect. Which means these people are not only faking it for whatever screwy reasons they have, but they are clearly stupid enough to not think about looking up how a uniform should be properly worn, how a ribbon or medal display should be built, etc, and quite frankly I find that this is evidence enough they wouldn't have an IQ worthy of military entrance.
4. The most common case is where people try to pull off the "I'm a career military person" when they attend their high school reunions. And most of these people tend to use Marine Corps Dress Blues that they quite obviously cant even fit their fat ass or gut into.
5. There are in fact some rules and regulations regarding the when/where a veteran---a real veteran---can wear certain uniforms. Usually it involves some event where such pride/prestige is relevant, or worn in honor of a related event. The fakers tend to ignore these things as well.
Signed --- a Former Marine Infantryman.
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Cpl Raul DeMoura
Cpl Christopher Bishop,...
This discussion started a long time ago, However, I would LOVE to throw in my two cents worth about this woman claiming the title of "Veteran Status". I would have to call her out on this. My father, a Korean war AND a Vietnam Era Veteran, served 22 years in the U.S. Army. My oldest brother, a few years in the Navy, an older brother in the Army, my Sister married into a Career Army, as for Myself... Im like YOU! I was a RECRUIT, from Jan 25 1983, until I became a United States Marine, upon GRADUATING BOOT CAMP on April 8 1983. I have always had "high arches" in my feet, and i will take a sprained ankle over a "fallen arch" ANY DAY! No sooner did one heal, the other "fell". My point is simply this... If a Man/Woman can NOT dig DEEP, and pull up some "Intestinal fortitude", and PUSH ON to GRADUATE boot camp, then they have NO RIGHT to call themselves a Veteran. It is MY OPINION, a Veteran is one who "serves 180 days of ACTIVE SERVICE"! that can ONLY be done AFTER GRADUATING BOOT CAMP, and serving in the "Fleet", on active duty, for 180 days! This should be brought to this womans attention. Maybe thats just me. Thanks for letting me "vent" THAT out!
This discussion started a long time ago, However, I would LOVE to throw in my two cents worth about this woman claiming the title of "Veteran Status". I would have to call her out on this. My father, a Korean war AND a Vietnam Era Veteran, served 22 years in the U.S. Army. My oldest brother, a few years in the Navy, an older brother in the Army, my Sister married into a Career Army, as for Myself... Im like YOU! I was a RECRUIT, from Jan 25 1983, until I became a United States Marine, upon GRADUATING BOOT CAMP on April 8 1983. I have always had "high arches" in my feet, and i will take a sprained ankle over a "fallen arch" ANY DAY! No sooner did one heal, the other "fell". My point is simply this... If a Man/Woman can NOT dig DEEP, and pull up some "Intestinal fortitude", and PUSH ON to GRADUATE boot camp, then they have NO RIGHT to call themselves a Veteran. It is MY OPINION, a Veteran is one who "serves 180 days of ACTIVE SERVICE"! that can ONLY be done AFTER GRADUATING BOOT CAMP, and serving in the "Fleet", on active duty, for 180 days! This should be brought to this womans attention. Maybe thats just me. Thanks for letting me "vent" THAT out!
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LTC Stephen C.
Cpl Christopher Bishop, earning the title United States Marine is indeed a time honored tradition, and one of which every Marine should be proud. You simply have not earned the title of Marine until you graduate from boot camp. While attending boot camp, you're referred to as recruit, among other things I'm sure! You earned the title of Marine, and for that, I salute you!
However, even though a recruit at USMC boot camp may not be referred to as a private, their rank is indeed a private in the USMC. It's the same in the Army. In the Navy and Coast Guard, the lowest rating is a seaman recruit and in the Air Force, the lowest rank is an airman basic. For all of the services, those ratings/ranks are the lowest enlisted grade of E-1. There is nothing lower. Sgt David G Duchesneau
However, even though a recruit at USMC boot camp may not be referred to as a private, their rank is indeed a private in the USMC. It's the same in the Army. In the Navy and Coast Guard, the lowest rating is a seaman recruit and in the Air Force, the lowest rank is an airman basic. For all of the services, those ratings/ranks are the lowest enlisted grade of E-1. There is nothing lower. Sgt David G Duchesneau
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Sgt David G Duchesneau
I went to Parris Island in 1968. I was referred to as many things including Marine. This Marine that and this Marine this? And everyone who enlisted or who were drafted at that time, we were alll Privates (E-1) and my pay grade reflected that. Many times, I was referred to by the DI as Private. And Colonel Curlee is right, we were all Marines once we graduated from Boot Camp. And anyone, I don't care who you are, who drops out of boot camp, who quits, who just gives up, would never be considered a Marine, NEVER! You would be considered nothing more than a "quitter."
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Cpl Christopher Bishop
LTC Stephen C. - Im not in disagreement with the "What Is", however Im suggesting a "What Should Be" by having the training-to-serve months NOT actually count as "Serving". As what Boot Camps and Schools are preparing you for, and hoping they will eventually gain some return for their investments, none of that bears any fruit AT LEAST UNTIL one has graduated Boot Camp. I understand we are on Payroll as (mostly E1s, some contract E2s), but paperwork doesn't mean you were put into an actual capacity to serve. In fact, if u want to get into symatics and word meaning, the very word Veteran means what exactly? Your familiarity with a Boot Camp environment in and of itself doesn't make you an experienced military member. You tried to serve, you wanted to serve, but you didn't really serve if a hangnail or toejam or your "brain housing group" failed leading you to an injury that got you sent home instead.
I think a 4 year service should mean 4 full years of serving, starting AFTER (at least boot camp graduation, if not after MOS School also). And thus a 20 year retirement would actually follow suit.
And in the days of Microsoft Excel spreadsheets, (if we are even accepting that human beings cannot handle simple math, which I do not), there is little reason we need to "keep it simple" in terms of the justifications to leave these things as they are.
I think a 4 year service should mean 4 full years of serving, starting AFTER (at least boot camp graduation, if not after MOS School also). And thus a 20 year retirement would actually follow suit.
And in the days of Microsoft Excel spreadsheets, (if we are even accepting that human beings cannot handle simple math, which I do not), there is little reason we need to "keep it simple" in terms of the justifications to leave these things as they are.
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I must agree that she is not a veteran because she failed to complete the requirements to even be considered a soldier. If you cannot hack basic training then you have not earned the right to be a soldier and thus have not earned the right to be called a veteran. I do not know what the discharge levels are anymore, but I would hope there is an administrative discharge to cover situations like hers so she does not receive an honorable discharge and thus lessen the sacrifice those of us who served our tours have earned. If it were someone I knew, I would call them out on it. I have a brother in law who calls himself a Vietnam veteran, but only flew in to Ton Say Nut during the fall to pick up refugees. He never even set foot on the tarmac. When he calls himself a Vietnam veteran, I call him out on it. He has stopped doing it if I am around because he knows I wlll embarass him. Do not soil the names of those who served honorably by stating you accomplished that which you did not.
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PO3 Heather B.
My father calls himself (rarely, but if pressed because he doesn't think of himself as a veteran at all, even though he is) a Vietnam era veteran because he was never "in-country" and does not want anyone to misunderstand. I tell him he has survivor's guilt because he volunteered to enlist and never got sent because the conflict was almost over and he was an only son (I think is what he said?) and so many were drafted.
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SSG William Patton
PO Heather B., you father has every right to be proud of his service, especially since he enlisted instead of being drafted. It was the luck of the draw as to whether one saw in country service in Vietnam. I volunteered to go there shortly after AIT, but it was another 18 months before I actually was sent. He need not feel guilt for not going. He tried to go, but as you said, the war was winding down and troops were being sent home, not to Vietnam. As for being the lone son, that would have probably kept him out even if the war were going full tilt. Praise him for his service, he earned it.
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SPC (Join to see)
Some of the restaurants that have specials for veterans don't even check for any type of ID that would show a person is a veteran. When I offer it they always say they don't need to see it. This woman could be taking advantage of the places that don't require ID's. I have it on my driver's license, have a VA card, and several memberships with veteran organizations.
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SR Charles Branscum
1975 Honorably discharged for being an habitual sleep walker after 5 weeks in Naval boot camp Orlando. Listed sleep walking on my enlistment papers but recruiter pushed me through anyway. Recruiter told me not to list sleep walking but I did anyway, so glad I did. Not proud of it, don't consider myself a veteran, but I tried and it didn't work out. This event doesn't make me or anyone else less honorable just young , dumb and misfortunate maybe. DD214 states Honorable, not separation. I don't think they do this anymore though.
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Looking at 38 U.S.C. Sec 101 paragraphs 2 and 24 I would say she is not a veteran.
(2) The term “veteran” means a person who served in the active military, naval, or air service, and who was discharged or released therefrom under conditions other than dishonorable.
(24) The term “active military, naval, or air service” includes—
(A) active duty;
(B) any period of active duty for training during which the individual concerned was disabled or died from a disease or injury incurred or aggravated in line of duty; and
(C) any period of inactive duty training during which the individual concerned was disabled or died—
(i) from an injury incurred or aggravated in line of duty; or
(ii) from an acute myocardial infarction, a cardiac arrest, or a cerebrovascular accident occurring during such training.
It doesn't appear that she falls into any of those categories, so legally I would say she isn't.
(2) The term “veteran” means a person who served in the active military, naval, or air service, and who was discharged or released therefrom under conditions other than dishonorable.
(24) The term “active military, naval, or air service” includes—
(A) active duty;
(B) any period of active duty for training during which the individual concerned was disabled or died from a disease or injury incurred or aggravated in line of duty; and
(C) any period of inactive duty training during which the individual concerned was disabled or died—
(i) from an injury incurred or aggravated in line of duty; or
(ii) from an acute myocardial infarction, a cardiac arrest, or a cerebrovascular accident occurring during such training.
It doesn't appear that she falls into any of those categories, so legally I would say she isn't.
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AB Rodney Meyers
Ok, I have a question for you. In 1974 I was in the air force in basic . We were pretty much all done with basic and getting 3 days leave and heading to tech school. I was called into my DI's office and sat down and was told that back at home some of my friends had taken my car and had killed someone with it. They said that I had to go home and thst they were given me a honorable discharge under medical reasons and I would be flying out in two days. It was not what I wanted but wasn't given a choice. So, am I considered a vet or not?
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SPC (Join to see)
What is it with people wanting to be a veteran and haven't even finished basic training? It reminds me of the "Navy Seal Syndrome" where phonies pretend they served. I don't know of any situation where a person who has not finished training can be considered a veteran.
In the army, we weren't even considered soldiers until we graduated. When I was in basic training in 1978 if a trainee couldn't pass they recycled him until he was considered untrainable and sent home in shame. I don't think the VA is going to pay benefits to anyone who never actually served. This woman sounds like a fake and a low life.
In the army, we weren't even considered soldiers until we graduated. When I was in basic training in 1978 if a trainee couldn't pass they recycled him until he was considered untrainable and sent home in shame. I don't think the VA is going to pay benefits to anyone who never actually served. This woman sounds like a fake and a low life.
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Donna Bartley
I have a question regarding this which I posted above as well hoping for an answer. I went to Army basic in Nov 1980 at Fort Jackson,MOS 92Y,training company E-2-2. Fell and was in the hospital for a week and was sent home no medical d/c only 2 weeks prior to completion. I am now 57 and have severe back arthritis and was told the fall probably set it in motion and I am now on permanent disability. I am not worried about rewards or compensation, just want to know if I can stand, say for instance, at church during Veterans Day ceremony. Don't want to if it is not right and figured this was the best place to ask. That is why I did not even put my association with the military until I know for sure. Did not want to claim something I am not entitled to. Thanks.
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I do not know if just showing up and leaving qualifies for veteran's status. Sounds like a union hall to me. I know in the Marines, you do not receive the title of Marine until you complete boot camp. As for veterans status, I do not know.
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Melissa Kibler
LCpl Steve Wininger - what if a person completed basic training and served one year but was kicked out due to bad misconduct and have no VA benifits?
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LCpl Steve Wininger
Melissa Kibler - Bad conduct conduct discharges make it difficult to obtain benefits. A dishonorable discharge prevents a person from ever obtaining VA benefits.
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Theresa Page
My husband joined the Navy in 1961, he wanted to serve so bad that he never told them that he had a previous knee surgery. When they found out, the honorably discharged him several weeks into training. He has NEVER claimed Veteran status but is nearing retirement and I was wondering if he should state that he had been in the Navy.
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I think it really depends on WHY they didn't finish. If it was not their fault, I think they should receive the benefits of someone that was injured out of the military. e.g. I think they should be considered a veteran from a legal standpoint. However, if they washed out, hell no.
And even if they injured out, they can be proud of their attempt, but I wouldn't personally consider them a "veteran" because they never earned the title soldier, sailor, airman or marine.
And even if they injured out, they can be proud of their attempt, but I wouldn't personally consider them a "veteran" because they never earned the title soldier, sailor, airman or marine.
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SrA Matthew Knight
Agreed. Those who put forth their greatest effort and didn't make it do to something such as medical that is beyond their control have respect in my books. Those who failed out because they just didn't care don't however. Especially the ones that I have seen in internet postings seeking attention despite their admissions that they basically cried their way out because they couldn't handle it and have DI/DS/MTI PTSD. At that point I am just going to laugh and walk away.
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SPC George Rudenko
I knew a kid who fell and broke his back in basic. I would call him a disabled veteran like anyone. BUT, someone who voluntarily quits... negative... not a veteran.
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A civilian becomes a Veteran if he or she has served. One can not serve if they don't finish Boot Camp or other services introduction schools. I tend to agree that you must complete your first enlistment in order to earn Veteran status. However, those wounded or disabled in their first enlistment should receive that title as well.
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