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Aside from the university in California that hates America, on Facebook there seems to be an uproar about done guy taking a pic in uniform with his baby cradled in an American flag. While I can appreciate the thought, it makes me cringe. I saw many service members defending it. I will copy/paste my comment and I'd like to hear your thoughts RP.
I assure you with 13 years and counting of military service, I love this country, and I love the flag that represents it. As another individual mentioned, there is a code of customs and courtesies associated with the flag to dictate how it is handled with dignity and respect. Having the privilege to have performed military honors at funerals, I can assure you everything about handling the flag is very specific. They way it's folded, how it should appear after folding, how it it rotated to be passed to the grieving etc. Everything about how the flag is handled with dignity and respect is specific. Those practices should always be preserved to maintain that sacred presence and reverence for the flag and what it stands for. It shouldn't be used as decor or a wrap for a photo. It also shouldn't be made into clothing (bikinis, boxers, jackets, etc.). Images of the flag upon clothing are deemed appropriate, but when the flag becomes the clothing itself, or a wrap, we are not observing those customs which are intended to show respect for the flag and love of country. I can greatly appreciate the sentiment and good hearted intention behind the photo, but it over looks the practice of actually holding the flag by a high and honorable standard. I don't think it's anything worth getting worked up about as some people seem to be. At least it attempts to be a very positive image, but it does make me cringe in the same way it makes me cringe to see flag bikinis, or stroller awnings, and so on. I hope you can appreciate my reasonable approach without it feeling like an attack. Most people don't even know that flag clothing is counter to code, and wear it with the mindset that it displays pride. Again, I can appreciate the sentiment, but I appreciate the code and adherence by it so much more, because it takes greater care and effort to observe it. Have a fantastic God-blessed American day!
I assure you with 13 years and counting of military service, I love this country, and I love the flag that represents it. As another individual mentioned, there is a code of customs and courtesies associated with the flag to dictate how it is handled with dignity and respect. Having the privilege to have performed military honors at funerals, I can assure you everything about handling the flag is very specific. They way it's folded, how it should appear after folding, how it it rotated to be passed to the grieving etc. Everything about how the flag is handled with dignity and respect is specific. Those practices should always be preserved to maintain that sacred presence and reverence for the flag and what it stands for. It shouldn't be used as decor or a wrap for a photo. It also shouldn't be made into clothing (bikinis, boxers, jackets, etc.). Images of the flag upon clothing are deemed appropriate, but when the flag becomes the clothing itself, or a wrap, we are not observing those customs which are intended to show respect for the flag and love of country. I can greatly appreciate the sentiment and good hearted intention behind the photo, but it over looks the practice of actually holding the flag by a high and honorable standard. I don't think it's anything worth getting worked up about as some people seem to be. At least it attempts to be a very positive image, but it does make me cringe in the same way it makes me cringe to see flag bikinis, or stroller awnings, and so on. I hope you can appreciate my reasonable approach without it feeling like an attack. Most people don't even know that flag clothing is counter to code, and wear it with the mindset that it displays pride. Again, I can appreciate the sentiment, but I appreciate the code and adherence by it so much more, because it takes greater care and effort to observe it. Have a fantastic God-blessed American day!
Customs and Courtesies
Pride
Patriotism
Flags and Vexillology
Posted 9 y ago
Responses: 93
After reading the comments on this thread and some soul searching of myself. There is a proper etiquette on the use of the flag. Although many do not know or care what it is. With that said, it seems many are making a mountain out of a mole hill. Many never scrutinize Olympians draping themselves in the flag but yet we criticize this sailor who may believe in this symbol of freedom so much they are proud it surrounds their newborn child. I for one am willing to let it slid especially not knowing what this young sailors thoughts are in wrapping this newborn child in the symbol of freedom. It is their flag as much as it is ours. And I am sure blood, sweat and tears have been shed for it.
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CW3 (Join to see)
You make a great point. I would argue that "cringing" isn't quite a mountain though. I cringe when it's stayed over Olympians, I cringe when it's a bikini, I cringe when it's frayed from excessive exposure to the elements. I wouldn't attack anyone or think they're a horrible person for it. It's definitely not a terrible act like burning or stomping on the flag. I would just personally prefer to observe and preserve traditions and the sort. In my opinion there is reverence ibn that. You could have a similar effect wrapping a baby in their parent's uniform with the flag presented in the background and have the same effect.
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MSgt (Join to see)
CW3 (Join to see)
I see your point and do not disagree. I also cringe over Olympians a bikini or if it is excisably frayed and not replaced. I will also concede cringing is not a mountain. Although I think others may bring it a little to far. They could have had the flag in the back ground. Which would have been a better choice with less backlash. But in the moment filled with so must joy and pride we sometimes loose our thought process and just act.
I see your point and do not disagree. I also cringe over Olympians a bikini or if it is excisably frayed and not replaced. I will also concede cringing is not a mountain. Although I think others may bring it a little to far. They could have had the flag in the back ground. Which would have been a better choice with less backlash. But in the moment filled with so must joy and pride we sometimes loose our thought process and just act.
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I've been told I am based on a Black and white mental and literal place.. IOW I see things in absolutes, just told that yesterday as a matter of fact.
my position on this topic clearly disagrees with that observation.
Id say IAW the US Flag code, wrapping a baby is not appropriate. But personally i see it as a respectfully, personal and appropriate use, display.
my position on this topic clearly disagrees with that observation.
Id say IAW the US Flag code, wrapping a baby is not appropriate. But personally i see it as a respectfully, personal and appropriate use, display.
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SFC (Join to see)
I totally agree that if you look at it black and white by "code" it is wrong. The guidelines show how it should be treated but doesn't deal with every facet. In researching this (one of those days) dealerships that fly huge flags are against that same code but gives me pride that its flying.
Even your "softer" side of seeing the picture as respectful is still correct because to me the essence of the code is to be patriotic.
Even your "softer" side of seeing the picture as respectful is still correct because to me the essence of the code is to be patriotic.
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Your question is proof that two people can look at something and see something entirely different. I see Nothing negative about this...I only see this as beauty, patriotism, Americanism, a strong sense of nationalism...I guess if you're a by - the - book type...this would blow your stack. I think a veteran should be able to do anything he damn well pleases with the flag...he wore it, he fought for it, he defended it, and it get draped across your coffin if you die for it....
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CW3 (Join to see), I appreciate the sentiment, and in the scheme of things, this is not some huge earth shattering big deal. However, Title 4, 8. (d) of the United States Code states that the flag should not be used as "wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery". Further the codes even suggests that the use of "bunting of blue, white, and red, always arranged with the blue above, the white in the middle, and the red below...for a decoration in general" could have been used to achieve a similar effect without the use of the U.S. flag. That's the approach I would have taken, and what I would have suggested for this sailor or anyone else.
Related paragraphs in Title 4:
8. (h) The flag should never be used as a receptacle for receiving, holding, carrying,
or delivering anything.
8. (j) No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform.
Cpl Jeff N. Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS Col Michael Grubbs, Ph.D. 1LT L S TSgt Hunter Logan
Related paragraphs in Title 4:
8. (h) The flag should never be used as a receptacle for receiving, holding, carrying,
or delivering anything.
8. (j) No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform.
Cpl Jeff N. Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS Col Michael Grubbs, Ph.D. 1LT L S TSgt Hunter Logan
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
Sir, as shown, it isn't a big deal. It isn't. Like you said, not earth shattering.
The flag is a thing. Just like our oath is a thing, and our uniforms are things.
However, we're military, and as such we tend to get "militant" about things, especially symbols, and traditions. I'm as guilty as the next guy, when it comes to the vast majority of them.
For whatever reason, my brain doesn't look at tangible symbols the same way however. I don't see anything inherently "wrong" with the picture, other than it is against the code. Misuse? Sure, desecration, not even close. Someone is symbolically wrapping a newborn with a flag.
It's fitting, since that's what it is, a symbol. Appropriate, is another debate.
The flag is a thing. Just like our oath is a thing, and our uniforms are things.
However, we're military, and as such we tend to get "militant" about things, especially symbols, and traditions. I'm as guilty as the next guy, when it comes to the vast majority of them.
For whatever reason, my brain doesn't look at tangible symbols the same way however. I don't see anything inherently "wrong" with the picture, other than it is against the code. Misuse? Sure, desecration, not even close. Someone is symbolically wrapping a newborn with a flag.
It's fitting, since that's what it is, a symbol. Appropriate, is another debate.
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LTC Stephen C.
Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS, I agree. I was just trying to show how the U.S. Code offers suggestions on how to accommodate such a situation without using the U.S. flag. I'll still be able to sleep tonight!
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CW3 (Join to see)
Agreed, but there is a difference between earth shattering, and subtle cringe-worthy. I'm but "worked up" by any means. I like what the photos mean to convey, the good intentions, and the heart behind them. I'm glad that there are people around that take that kind if pride in their work and family. It's certainly a victimless offense. But again, professionalism; it's part of our work, and the way we express some things (and don't/cannot), is part of that professionalism. Let the less informed civilians who generally aren't as keen to these sort of traditions make those honest mistakes.
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I judged the picture first before reading the title. I was actually impressed with it. I say that because I have a little two year old and it just made me think of my military service, her, my wife and the hardships that come along with it. I think anyone's idea on this will be based a-lot on their stance of various things and there is no right or wrong answer here. As long as it is not meant out of disrespect, the little one in the picture reminds me of why we fight for our young nation.
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So if someone where to wrap a wounded service member in the flag and someone got a picture of that I wonder what people would say. Point being this picture to me say one thing I love America and America loves you back.
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
CW3 (Join to see) draping the flag over a casket is a symbolic protection of our dead. The picture above is a symbolic protection of our young. One is allowed by the code, the other is not. People are getting hung up on the code, which is tradition. There is nothing inherently wrong about either.
The flag, as an object, only has as much power as you invest in it. The flag as a symbol however has so much more.
To highlight a point, if you were shot in the leg, and bleeding out, and the only thing we could use as a tourniquet was the flag, should we? Even if we had to rip it? Destroy it to do it? The code says no, but I'd do it in a heartbeat.
The flag, as an object, only has as much power as you invest in it. The flag as a symbol however has so much more.
To highlight a point, if you were shot in the leg, and bleeding out, and the only thing we could use as a tourniquet was the flag, should we? Even if we had to rip it? Destroy it to do it? The code says no, but I'd do it in a heartbeat.
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CW3 (Join to see)
Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS that example is pretty exaggerated. Of course you will use whatever means to save a life. That'd be silly not to. Pictures and sentiment are a far cry from an emergency situation (such as upside down distress signal). Of course it's just an object, but so are many things that people would treat with care and respect regardless of the fact that it's just matter. By your logic you could dismiss a LOT of the customs and traditions our profession observes, because "f#@& it, I want to make a statement" whether positive or negative. It's simply part of what we do, and who we are as service members.
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
CW3 (Join to see) The example was designed to be exaggerated. It's to highlight the point. As you said, treat it with care and respect. The pictures above show the flag being treated with care and respect, just as the baby wrapped inside it are. Yes, it is outside the code, and it does irk me, probably as much as you.
But they aren't ruining the symbol. They aren't even ruining the object. There is reverence there. Which is all I can ask. I would rather there be a code violation with reverence, than someone with no code violation, and no reverence.
But they aren't ruining the symbol. They aren't even ruining the object. There is reverence there. Which is all I can ask. I would rather there be a code violation with reverence, than someone with no code violation, and no reverence.
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CW3 (Join to see)
Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS I gotcha. Safe to say we are in agreement, but I like to play devil's advocate. I mentioned in another comment though, it's hard to make that argument with someone when both expressions, positive or negative, are constitutionally protected. I'd rather avoid the double standard, but I'm not jumping down anyone's throat over it...granted I might have to dig deep in my "let it go" center when it comes to blatant disrespect, even though...constitution and all. Dinner people refer to some forms of expression as "assault", but whatever...couch lawyers haha.
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http://www.usflag.org/uscode36.html
Link is for those who want official information regarding Official US Flag Code.
But that said, the Flag is a Symbol. It represents all that is good and all that is bad about the United States of America. All that we are, and all that we strive to be. The code advises how we should treat that symbol, and is based on the Army & Navy guidelines previous to 1923.
Link is for those who want official information regarding Official US Flag Code.
But that said, the Flag is a Symbol. It represents all that is good and all that is bad about the United States of America. All that we are, and all that we strive to be. The code advises how we should treat that symbol, and is based on the Army & Navy guidelines previous to 1923.
USFlag.org: A website dedicated to the Flag of the UnitedStates of America - United States Code
Find answers to common and uncommon questions about the United States Flag and its evolution. Information on Flag etiquette and the U.S. Flag Code. Patriotic poems, hymns, and essays.
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It is an improper use of the flag according to the flag code. I am sure intentions were good and they thought this was patriotic but it is not. There is a lot of this of late. People wrapping themselves in a flag sometimes scantily clad etc. It would be nice to see some flag etiquette taught in the military.
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PO1 Michael Phipps
Not just in the military, Cpl, but nationwide. The lack of what the 'Greatest Generation' taught the next generation of service people has effectively died after the end of the Vietnam era, sad to say. And those in my 20 years of service up to '98 failed in their duty to EVER teach the flag code and the proper use(s) of the flag and this is NOT one of them. And then photographer claims to have been an enlisted sailor and spouse of a currently enlisted sailor and the father is in the working Navy uniform of the day And claims she's going to do more pics and 15% of what she generates to charity. Sorry that we can't contact the photog any more to raise the US Flag Code situation. And if they'll do that, do they know how to properly dispose of a flag that is in a tattered condition so that it can be honorably burned by the veteran fraternal post in their community.
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Cpl Jeff N.
TSgt Hunter Logan. I didn't think you were old enough to be a part of the greatest generation. You would be pushing 90 by now at least.
You are correct, there are many inappropriate uses of the flag these days. Athletes wrapping themselves is improper, pooping on it is improper. making clothing out of it is improper etc. Those are objected to regularly.
Again, the Flag Code is not a criminal code and has no penalties associated with it. It is to guide those that want to use appropriate care and reverence in the use of the flag.
You are correct, there are many inappropriate uses of the flag these days. Athletes wrapping themselves is improper, pooping on it is improper. making clothing out of it is improper etc. Those are objected to regularly.
Again, the Flag Code is not a criminal code and has no penalties associated with it. It is to guide those that want to use appropriate care and reverence in the use of the flag.
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PO1 Michael Phipps
Well, little did I know that the young sailor in question is from my home town Mansfield, OH until the local paper printed it on the front page that covered both sides of the fold.
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I didn't realize you posted this I also posed the question too. I see it as patriotic all flag "rules" are not rules they are suggestions. This is showing the protection lady Liberty the Stars and Stripes and these men ensure their children have. My daughter was born while I was down range. I love these.
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I would much rather see our flag used for a heart warming picture like this then on someone's backside as a pair of shorts.
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