Posted on Jan 19, 2014
APFT improperly terminated - what should my next steps be?
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At the school house the APFT is being conducted and a student is improperly terminated during the sit up event by someone other than the Grader, Event Supervisor or OIC/NCOIC. The person was a MSG who was a course manager but not directly involved with the administration of the APFT. The Student while in the up rest position removed one hand from behind their head and adjusted their shorts which were riding up their leg, and then put the hand back. The repetition should not count but does not warrant to be terminated. The Grader confirms nothing was done to warrant termination but the MSG maintains that they thought they saw the Soldier pull themselves up using their hand. The NCOIC does nothing to maintain control over their APFT and the student fails the sit up event. A week later the student passes the retest with a score of 285, max the push ups and sit ups. The student also has excelled at all other requirements thus far but will be withheld from qualifying for honors. My question is giving the situation at hand does the schoolhouse give the student the benefit of the doubt due to mishandling the situation and not properly adminstering the APFT or does the student have to suck it up and drive on? My inclination is that the student should be given fair consideration of a benefit of the doubt especially when the incident was not handled properly. Looking for some advice and insight as I am trying my best to fight for this NCO as they are my student and all. We preach about doing what is right as NCO's and leaders..
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Physical Training
Physical Training
Posted 12 y ago
Responses: 6
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SSG McGee, I would gather supporting documents, i.e. sworn statements, from all persons involved and take this up with your 1SG. At a minimum the Commandant should be aware of the situation and should provide guidance, but not before you bring all the facts to your 1SG.
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CPT (Join to see)
I agree completely with MSG Stankovich. Sworn statements from the grader, NCOIC, OIC, event supervisor, student, and the MSG that terminated the event. The statements should include at a minimum what their role was in the event and what they personally observed. If only the MSG observed or thought he/she observed the physical assistance on the student's part the grader at least would have observed the same thing. Was anyone in the grader's line watching? If so then you can get their sworn statement as well. But these statements should definitely go to the 1SG and CO prior to going to the Commandant.
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MAJ (Join to see)
It is all about having systems in place and not running directly to the highest levels prior to addressing the situation at the lowest levels. NCOs are the experience and professionals that have the ability and courage to influence others without micromanagement. At least the good ones! Best of luck!
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The MSG was out of line for butting in where he didn't belong and the NCOIC needs to grow a spine. The two of them should have taken the issue offline and discussed it out of earshot of others. The student has reason to appeal the original decision to the Commandant, via the 1SG, and some MSG has a lot of explaining to do.
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SFC William Swartz Jr
Glad to see that you were able to get it rectified, I had a somewhat similar incident involving me in my BNCOC class back in '92. Another student was told that he had failed the run portion of the APFT and proceeded to cry to the Track chief that other NCOs had come in after him and passed, and he dropped names, yadda yadda. I was then informed, a week after the APFT by the 19K Track Chief(MSG) that I would have to take the APFT over as I was one of the individuals named and that I would not be able to compete for honors. I protested as we were informed that if we failed we would be counseled and I had not been counseled and to my knowledge had not failed, which I hadn't by the way. The MSG asked who my grader was, and I told him "You were MSG!", I then informed him that I wanted to protest this to the Commandant, but was told that that decision was final. So I had to wait and endure "remedial" pt for 4 weeks until the retest, which once again I passed, and instead of being the Distinguished Honor Grad, I had to watch as someone that has a GPA 3 full points lower than me was accorded that honor. Oh and the 19D that dropped names, I think his own track visited him one night to express their disapproval of his throwing fellow Soldiers under the bus, needless to say he was Persona non grata for the entire length of BNCOC.
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Love this.. NCOs taking care of business. Great work SSG McGee, far to many NCOs are afraid to speak up for others, and its for no reason at all. If you are right and tactful with your approach to the situation 99% of the time you will prevail.
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The 1SG and MSG in this thread are 100% on point, and I see you took that advise and rectified the situation. Outstanding job SSG for stand up to what is right. It take a strong person to do that. I am so happy that we have this platform to assist and mentor young NCO's like this . Great job 1SG and MSG for your advise and mentorship. This is what this tool "Rally Point" is designed to to!
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I'm sorry, but I would have just kept on knocking out the event. If a random NCO bystander happens to walk up to the formation, but is not involved with grading, supervising, or being the NCOIC, then they do not have the authority to interfere with the test.
In this case, I agree with 1SG Blount and MSG Stankovich. There is an appeals process and that should be used. The chain of command exists for a reason, even if it means taking it up to the Commandant level through the instructors and 1SG.
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SSG McGee,
As a previous Company Commander, I value this discussion topic as well as your ability to articulate the situation. This is clearly a situation that needs to be handled in a manner that accurately accounts for facts as already stated by MSG Stankovich. Granted this situation is not a nuance or a phenomena that has not previously occurred at some point; it is a place and time to educate senior non-commissioned officers as well as other NCOs. Though the actual event should have not been a spectacular display of emotion toward the Soldier (rank is immaterial) when it occurred. There is a certain level of respect and confidence that should be upheld before, during, and after the APFT. We [Leaders] should not place ourselves so far into the event that we lose our best ability to capture the total environment. It just proves that the MSG is standing by his decision and will not budge due to his inability to be amicable towards his fellow NCOs. Based on what you have conveyed in your question, there is a fine line between respecting his position in the moment to include continuing the APFT. However, this situation needs to be addressed in such a way that does not discredit his judgement, but also generates a future understanding that does not humiliate the senior NCO as well. Simply, at the time and place the event occurred---he made a call, but that does not mean that he cannot overcome it without tarnishing his reputation.
Above all, the grading NCO was interrupted in making an unbiased decision on the event with his experience and knowledge of the regulation. Therefore, he/she is not to blame for the outcome. Transparency needs to occur with the Commandant to review the situation and facts without having the MSG's presence during the review. At that point, the outcome (whatever it may be) sets a new precedence for the organization---it either becomes new policy supported by Army regulation or a policy that addresses APFT conduct, procedures, and responsibilities for future APFTs. You might not be able to shape that particular Soldier's situation to receive "honors" however, in the future you will be able to rely on experiences and definitive answers.
In my opinion, there is justification to argue your point and you are definitely at the rank that deserves attention in the matter. The question is then, "Will the senior NCO continue to inject himself or herself into matters that can be addressed after the fact?" or "Will the senior NCO display a high level of humility in accepting that he/she was incorrect?" Ultimately, we all have to accept that the outcome could be on either side because of dynamics at the leadership level, but who is going to go the extra step to correct the injustice. Again, it may seem like a very minuscule item on the agenda at times, but there needs to be someone who cares enough to not ignore it.
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MAJ (Join to see)
http://www.thejendra.com/ARTICLES/arrogance.htm
A general dictionary
defines arrogance in many ways like, ‘Offensive display of superiority,
self-importance, overbearing pride, pompous, haughtiness, behaving in a
superior manner toward inferi...
defines arrogance in many ways like, ‘Offensive display of superiority,
self-importance, overbearing pride, pompous, haughtiness, behaving in a
superior manner toward inferi...
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