Posted on Oct 25, 2013
SFC Intelligence Sergeant
11.2K
88
47
5
4
1
A common complaint that comes up during discussions among NCOs is that the Army is doing itself a disservice by essentially outlawing the good, oldfashioned "smoke session". Obviously the situation varies by unit, but by and large this seems to be a common topic across duty stations. What once would have been seen as an NCO keeping good order and discipline could now land you in a heap of trouble.
Posted in these groups: United states army logo ArmyImages 20 NCOs
Avatar feed
Responses: 26
SSG Retired!!!
2
2
0
Yes we are, people tend to forget that this is an Army, not a place that owes you personal time, explanation for everything, mandatory awards. Not only are we being too soft on Soldiers but those Soldiers are getting promoted and becoming soft leaders. They look good on paper but can't perform in the field.
(2)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
SSG Platoon Sergeant
2
2
0
I think there is a way to use smoking as an effective tool for correction and training, but I think that in the past it got way out of hand, and unfortunately that led to the Army having to respond and make changes. If smoking had been used responsibly the whole time, I don't know if that would have happened. I personally have a very laid-back personality and I don't enjoy smoking soldiers, but I think the way to use it effectively is as a quick, immediate reminder to nudge an otherwise good soldier back to the correct behavior. But ongoing patterns of behavior or conscious decisions to do the wrong thing need to be addressed by actually evaluating that behavior and setting up a plan to change it. Smoking just can't fix these things by itself, and responding to escalating misbehavior by just escalating the amount of smoking is poor leadership.
(2)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
SFC David Hickman
1
1
0
Edited 9 y ago
Yes. And many leaders view corrective training as "inhuman". There needs to be a balance when utilizing corrective training. Weak Soldiers are being developed and even though generations of Soldiers change and become modernized, the physical and mental effects of war are unchanging. We're not the Boy Scouts or a political organization.

http://usarmyleaders.blogspot.com/2015/06/us-army-total-leadership-human-side-of.html
(1)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
MSgt Aircrew Flight Equipment
1
1
0
here are some real issues in the military with political correctness and tip toeing around feelings. That being said, there are still multitudes of tools available to all of us when it comes to teaching, motivating, and yes even correcting.
If you feel that you are running out of tools and options to deal with a situation, then talk to your mentors and leaders to discover new options. I have yet to run into a situation where a smoke session was the ONLY solution. I personally see it as a challenge to expand my creativity (and believe me when I say that I can be pretty creative).
That is one of the real benefits of forums such as these.
(1)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
SFC Intelligence Sergeant
1
1
0
Great feedback, gents. It is a fact that good counseling, leading by example, and knowing your Soldiers solves a boat load of Soldier related problems. I completely agree that you can't use the same approach with every Soldier. I also agree that in the "good old days" things could go a little too far. By too far I mean IVs, vomiting, bleeding, etc. However, I asked this question because at my current unit it's been explained to me that anything more than 5 repetitions was strictly verboten. I wonder if this might be taking it a little too far in the other direction. This struck me as something worth turning into a topic and seeing what the gang had to say.    
(1)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
SGT Jeffrey Fisher
0
0
0
The recruits are the weak ones! "Oh my P#$$y hurts I am going to call my Mommy" or skipping out on retreat and posting selfies online! Posing making gang symbols WTF! These Kids wouldn't last 2min with my DI or with my CO or NCO s
From back in my time! You whined You got smoked harder! Ridiculous!
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
SFC Dr. Joseph Finck, BS, MA, DSS
0
0
0
SFC Brown.

Soldiers, as a microcosm of society, change. As we have entered the video game, computer, and smart phone age, the persons entering the military have a much different life than I did growing up with a party line telephone and three TV stations.

Thusly our style of training has to change would be an initial comment, or does it? I started my military career as a United States Marine. Boot camp in the Marine Corps is a right of passage. When I went through it was prior to the development of the crucible, but it was still a life changing event.

So in answer to your question are we too soft, probably. But can we be too hard, misguided, or directed, likely. There is a balance which must be struck by NCOs in the field and knowing your troops is a first step. For me, as a senior NCO all someone had to do was act as though they were about to utter the word "disappointed" and I would changing course and doing all I could to excel. I did not hear that word, but it would motivate me if I thought it might come. Again, knowing your Soldiers seems quite important.

Two things which were shared with me that served me well. First, the adage, "easy to be hard, hard to be smart." Second, the adage that "people accept starting hard and getting soft, they have trouble with starting soft and getting hard."

Good luck,
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
SFC Motor Transport Operator
0
0
0
I say yes, I got this new PVT in my PLT, fresh out of basic, says to me that their wake up wasn't till 0600. I said WHAT ??? What happened to 0430 wake up and PT ?
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
CPT Daniel Walk, M.B.A.
0
0
0
As has been said, the single greatest problem faced in the NCO Corps and the Company Grade Officer levels is lack of creativity withing the imposed system. Corrective training, executed prior to punishment, must achieve a new level of focus and efficiency.

My favorite, since my squad leader days, is to make subordinates hand copy portions of regulations, those specifically related to the offense. This does many things all at once. The initial counseling informs them of their failure to meet Army standards. Second, by establishing a very low tolerance for error (hand copying for crying out loud) it breeds attention to the details (I require the use of blue or black ink). Third, failure to meet the standard establishes a pattern of failure to meet the standard, leading quickly to UCMJ or separation. Finally, at least here, I know they have read, and probably memorized, parts of that regulation. Nobody likes to do this, but if they fail, they face separation.

For me, the greatest advantage to this is instead of wasting my time, or my NCOs (who need to be working with the promising leaders) this correction must be done on their own time. It works more often than not. Follow-on and close-out counselings turn out better for both the leader and the led. The correction is accomplished with minimal, but repairable damage to the relationship, and the Soldier (possibly even the leader) comes out that much more knowledgeable.

All that to say there must be new ways with the new restrictions...


(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
SSG Section Chief
0
0
0

Being a SPC, I definitely have an opinion on this: I do not think the Army is being too soft on soldiers. OK so let's say we have SGT #1 and SGT #2. SGT #1 corrects soldiers on the spot and informs them if they will do it again, they will be counseled (or depending on the offense gives a 4856 for the 1st offense) but is polite and treats said individual with respect but expects them to maintain professionalism. SGT #2 sees the same individual make a mistake, screams in their face, and then smokes the shit out of them all while yelling or continuously reprimanding them.
Who is going to get a better product out of their workers? I say SGT #1. SGT #2 may get respect through ruling with an iron fist but the individuals that work for him are only going to do enough work to not make him mad or to get what they want for their own careers (promotion board, soldier of the month). Soldiers working for SGT #1 will work hard because they don't want to be a disappointment and they potentially care about SGT #1 and what he thinks of them not just because they are afraid of him.
It also because an "Us against Him" type of situation. Or soldiers vs. the NCO. It should be a team effort and everyone should be working together not against one another.

(0)
Comment
(0)
SFC Health I.T. (Hit) Systems Security Engineer
SFC (Join to see)
>1 y
Let me tell you something Specialist. As an NCO coming from a combat unit to a signal unit..there are many huge differences. Starting with discipline! I had a Pv2 try to get in my face and tell me to fuck off with the the orders we both received from CSM to move Pv2 Johns' 5-ton out of the A.O. and further down the road. He was physically aggressive, I defended myself with a move forcing him on the ground and then repeating that command given from above.  He slammed his barracks room door on my face...I had the CQ open it up, and made the PV2 due 50 Push-ups. He got up in the middle of doing them and ran like a baby to 1SG.

Now, not only were we both P.o.ed, but here is where the 1st was wrong in my prof. opinion. Top told ME to apologize for "belittling him in front of his peers" (which did not happen). SSG. Marx had seen this whole event himself as he was the CQ.

Top let him off by giving PV2 Johns a "warning" not to piss me off again. I was informed to write him a conseling statement to the fact and let it go..no AR15 for assault on NCO, disrespect of an NCO , disobedience of a lawful order, negletion of duty, etc, etc.

Now you tell me what is wrong with "Today s Army"?
I have yet to see much of it, not like the "Old School Army".

(0)
Reply
(0)
SFC Platoon Sergeant
SFC (Join to see)
>1 y
An NCO's primary responsibility is to train and prepare his Soldiers for battle. Part of that preparation is in making them physically fit. Part of that preparation is to teach them to deal with stress (the greatest points of stress come from the two-way-shooting-range). Both of these can be achieved by performing physical exercise as part of corrective training ("smoking" for the lay-person).

Counseling serves a purpose as well, but using your sense of reasoning, which one gets immediate (and effective results); a little physical discomfort from doing a handful of push-ups for minor infractions or living under the constant threat of losing your pay, freedom (restriction) and extra work without extra pay (extra duty)... topped off by fines? 

Bottom line is time and place. One is appropriate for some situations, while the other is appropriate for others. In addition, "smoking" a Soldier (or group of Soldiers) does not need to entail swearing, cursing or demeaning behavior. That compromises the integrity of the individual administering the corrective "smoke session" in front of their subordinates. That, young Specialist, is the key to effective physical corrective training... your demeanor.
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small

Join nearly 2 million former and current members of the US military, just like you.

close