Posted on Aug 5, 2014
Atheists Want Guard to Stop Bible Handouts. What is your opinion?
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If you do not believe in the BIBLE GOD JESUS etc do not take the BIBLE. Easy answer
http://www.military.com/daily-news/2014/08/05/atheists-want-guard-to-stop-bible-handouts.html?ESRC=eb.nl
http://www.military.com/daily-news/2014/08/05/atheists-want-guard-to-stop-bible-handouts.html?ESRC=eb.nl
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Atheism
Atheism
Posted 10 y ago
Responses: 186
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I was offered a Bible during in processing at reception. I declined and explained that I am Jewish. The person went away and returned with a Torah. I still have it - and use it - to this day.
I had some bad experiences with evangelical Christians who will not back off. To me that is a matter of ignorance on their part and there is no need to make some kind of universal rule that will affect everyone.
I had some bad experiences with evangelical Christians who will not back off. To me that is a matter of ignorance on their part and there is no need to make some kind of universal rule that will affect everyone.
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CPO William Hughes
Quite a bit of rambling going on here. Not sure of what you are saying. First one thing, then contradicting that with almost an apology. I'm sure you feel what you are trying to say but it's just not clear. However, I take exception to this; "We for our faith regardless if we chose to claim to be from Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Atheist, or any other have to accept responsibility for the entire community of the faith", Atheism is not a faith. In the words of Mark Twain, "Faith is believing what you know, ain't so." I am not responsible for people of faith, if they want to believe, that's up to them. It seems that so many people in this forum are missing the point of the original discussion. The objection to passing out bibles is not the act of passing them out, it lies in who is passing them out. if a member of the armed forces is passing out christian bibles, then that is a violation of the "separation of church/state". If a non-governmental entity is passing out bibles, that's fine. I would personally decline, but that's my choice. No one is denying anyone's right to their religion.
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SPC Travis Grizzard
So Lt, you posted, "Secondly, I want a "Truth-Seeking" "Scientific" Chaplain", which would require "Truth Seeking" "Scientific" to be a recognized religion, then you followed that with, "And I want a "Truth-Seeking" "Scientific"ROTC program at some decent University", thereby establishing "Truth Seeking" "Scientific" as the OFFICIAL religion of the US Military
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CH (MAJ) William Beaver
As a Chaplain I say that Chaplains who won't back off from pressuring Soldiers or attempting to evangelize outside the chapel services are in violation of AR 165-1.
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"No thank you" simple, easy, non-aggressive, mom & dad taught you how to say it and what it means and you've been using the phrase for a while...
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SSgt (Join to see)
MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca - Thanks for the salute but you didn't have to! LOL! Seriously, that was my first inclination, not to salute but to say, "No sir or no Mam." Simple, courteous and always a polite way of saying 'no'.
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CPT Jason Torpy
Maybe we should have Pepsi, Chevy Truck, Scientologists, Amway, and every other organization the privilege of marketing their wares to vulnerable and impressionable recruits? If the chaplaincy were making available, with equal fervor, the Qu'ran, Book of Mormon, Wiccan materials, and the Humanist Manifesto, then maybe the Bibles would have a place. As it is, troops should have to fend off missionaries when they've got enough problems to deal with.
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SPC Charles Brown
MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca
Hopefully they were taught by mom and dad to show this kind of respect. Nowadays it could be anything rude or nothing at all.
Hopefully they were taught by mom and dad to show this kind of respect. Nowadays it could be anything rude or nothing at all.
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Is it "handing out" or "making available". Those are two different things. I would have issues if the military was issuing a bible to every soldier. But I have NEVER seen that in my 18 yrs. What I have seen is the chaplains will set up a table with religious literature available (of all kinds of flavors) and soldiers are free to take what they want. THAT should not change.
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CPT Jason Torpy
1LT Scott Doyle The religious accommodation regulations and the mission of the chaplains are to provide for all soldiers. We didn't 'show up at a party', we volunteered to serve our country. We didn't ask for 'RC' Cola, we're asking for support for our core values and beliefs. You wouldn't say Catholics are just whining when the don't get Mass, don't marginalize our core values.
All the materials are available at militaryatheists.org and other organizations. Care packages go out every month and we send out materials all over the world. But all of this support is done with no help and often official exclusion from chaplain programs. So your hypothesis that we humanists just aren't willing to help is wrong. Go to your chaplain and ask for humanist materials and see what they say.
All the materials are available at militaryatheists.org and other organizations. Care packages go out every month and we send out materials all over the world. But all of this support is done with no help and often official exclusion from chaplain programs. So your hypothesis that we humanists just aren't willing to help is wrong. Go to your chaplain and ask for humanist materials and see what they say.
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CPT Jason Torpy
1LT Scott Doyle We're not trying to match Christians. It's not a competition. It's a matter of having something for us. I'm glad you're in support of chaplain support for humanists and other nontheists. Drop by and point your chaplain at militaryatheists.org. See if he or she is willing to put the word out. Remember that 'no one asked' isn't the standard. They know nontheists are in the unit, so they should ask themselves what part of their attitude or the command climate is pushing those soldiers away?
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As an atheist, I find this to be complete bull$h!t! Folks in the military do a tough job, so if someone comes along and tries to provide something that might add comfort or solace to the lives of others, so be it. If you don’t want it you do not have to accept it in the same way you would turn away a helping of boiled cauliflower, “No, but thanks for offering!” I will also admit that there are those [religious zealots] that I have served with that clearly needed to have some boundaries established. I can think of one that never knew quite when to stop and I almost came to blows with the fellow. There are ways of addressing issues with these individuals through your chain of command.
I also feel that we all took an oath and in that oath we swore to defend the constitution which affords certain freedoms. Speech and religion, even if the speech or religion is different than our own is a freedom that should be protected. Before folks start swinging at me about ‘separation of church and state’ comments, you should consider what the founding fathers were talking about when this idea was put to paper. The clear intent was to keep government from trying to infiltrate the church and assert pressure and persuasion by way of clergy. We have become so horribly PC that simple communication almost seems impossible anymore. We have so many incredible traditions in the military and many of them have ties to a higher power. If you are seriously offended by this and are incapable of “politely declining” when offered these materials, maybe it is time to pull the eject lever!
Just because I do not believe in a higher power does not make me right nor does it lessen the importance of protecting the rights of others to believe in one!
I also feel that we all took an oath and in that oath we swore to defend the constitution which affords certain freedoms. Speech and religion, even if the speech or religion is different than our own is a freedom that should be protected. Before folks start swinging at me about ‘separation of church and state’ comments, you should consider what the founding fathers were talking about when this idea was put to paper. The clear intent was to keep government from trying to infiltrate the church and assert pressure and persuasion by way of clergy. We have become so horribly PC that simple communication almost seems impossible anymore. We have so many incredible traditions in the military and many of them have ties to a higher power. If you are seriously offended by this and are incapable of “politely declining” when offered these materials, maybe it is time to pull the eject lever!
Just because I do not believe in a higher power does not make me right nor does it lessen the importance of protecting the rights of others to believe in one!
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LT Clint Davis
MSgt Bill Jones if they are truly "mandatory" I can see where there may be some issues. However, I have been working on a joint VA & DoD project to integrate chaplain resources as part of mental health and wellness with Behavioral Health Services. I think that there is an assumption that if you speak with a chaplain that it has to be about God. The reality is, many are equipped with training and tools to deal with a whole myriad of issues that do not necessarily require religion. Moreover, many [servicemembers] feel more comfortable with talking to chaplain services because of confidentiality. In short your application to "Sniper School" is not affected the same way as if you had gone to BHS for the same issues. Most all of the chaplains I have worked with are professional and tend to act as ad hoc social workers. They are on the payroll so I say use 'em!
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SFC Brian Vasquez
you are so on point..im a christian..and i so respect your view on this..excellent!!
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CPT Jason Torpy
LT Clint Davis - as an atheist, you should understand government-sponsored evangelism when you see it. Why are there only Bibles and piles of them. When will they hand out Muslim or humanist materials? If they were interested in something other than proselytism, we'd see diversity and equal support for all. As it stands, they're targeting vulnerable troops with their evangelical message. And you consider it the young troop's responsibility to out him/herself as nonChristian while the command is giving special access to troops to evangelicals. Let's all agree that any troop can get what they want from the chaplain but shouldn't have it shoved in their face.
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Why do Atheists spend so much effort protesting that which they don't believe?
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SFC (Join to see)
Asking someone to suppress their beliefs in order to allow others to practice their belief that God does not exist is in fact trying to force their belief of non-belief on others. Same thing. I have many athiest friends that I fully love as people but there is a mutual respect for each other's practices. I have never seen any respectable person be treated poorly in their unit because of their faith choices. This topic is a mutual fight for balance as it is a very personal identification of ones own self and how we fit into this world.
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SSG (Join to see)
Sgt Packy Flickinger, the standard goes both ways. Being free to choose does not pertain to only atheists, nor nor does it pertain to those with deep spiritual beliefs. There are many people across the board who wish to subject others to their agenda as well as infringe on others' right to believe as they so choose, whether it be atheism, Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, agnosticism, etc. If you wish to be an atheist then that is YOUR choice. If someone else wishes to be Jewish then that is THEIR choice. Again, same goes with every other belief. You can CHOOSE to be offended if someone offers you a Bible, or Torah, or Koran, etc but it's up to YOU. Just as if someone were to offer me something that I either don't like or am not interested in, I would politely say "No, thank you." Oh, and there are a great deal many things I personally don't like too.
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SSG (Join to see)
The same can be said for any religion not just atheists. They protest against religion because they don't believe in a deity and controlling the masses.
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LTC (Join to see)
Most of us (atheists) do so because religion is forced on us, often in ways that cannot be avoided. I had a change of command ceremony (company level) where neither the outgoing commander (yours truly, an atheist) nor the incoming commander (Jewish) were Christian, and neither wanted a Christian invocation or benediction at the ceremony.
The Battalion Commander would not allow those elements to be removed from the ceremony, and when we (outgoing and incoming commanders for OUR ceremony) requested a Jewish chaplain perform them in a non-denominational manner he refused.
So, an atheist captain relinquished command to a Jewish lieutenant and both of us were forced to unwanted and unwelcome Christian prayers where they clearly didn't belong.
That was the most extreme example I've seen, but it is constant. Even something as simple as basic trainees being given a few hours off every Sunday to attend church, but for the atheists it is just a few extra hours of cleaning the barracks.
The Battalion Commander would not allow those elements to be removed from the ceremony, and when we (outgoing and incoming commanders for OUR ceremony) requested a Jewish chaplain perform them in a non-denominational manner he refused.
So, an atheist captain relinquished command to a Jewish lieutenant and both of us were forced to unwanted and unwelcome Christian prayers where they clearly didn't belong.
That was the most extreme example I've seen, but it is constant. Even something as simple as basic trainees being given a few hours off every Sunday to attend church, but for the atheists it is just a few extra hours of cleaning the barracks.
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Better be ready for handouts of the Koran and Torah, too. That doesn't mean I'm an atheist. Just trying to give everyone equal opportunity.
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CPT Jason Torpy
Sorry for the mis-attribution Capt Jeff S.
SPC D W. It is not absolutely true that the Resurrection of Jesus did not happen. It is fantastically unlikely, something along the likelihood that Star Wars did in fact happen a long long time ago in a galaxy far far away. And science doesn't say the Bible is wrong exactly. It's just that the Bible makes lots of claims that are inconsistent with reality as science has shown.
here's a favorite listing just to start with: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/science/long.html
I really think it's important that you understand that science is not about absolutes. When Christians commit as a matter of faith to a certain doctrine or fundamentalist interpretation of scripture, that's in itself unscientific. Classical Physics was adapted to incorporate Quantum Mechanics. Original natural selection has incorporated a number of discoveries to become Modern Synthesis Evolution. Old ideas are almost never determined to be just wrong, like 'humours' in medicine. There is a building of idea upon idea to improve our understanding, and modern science reflects a relatively strong understanding of our universe. That's why we can shoot a probe off the planet and land it 10 years later on a comet. That's not a miracle to just believe blindly but to understand the origins and purposes of for future recreation.
SPC D W. It is not absolutely true that the Resurrection of Jesus did not happen. It is fantastically unlikely, something along the likelihood that Star Wars did in fact happen a long long time ago in a galaxy far far away. And science doesn't say the Bible is wrong exactly. It's just that the Bible makes lots of claims that are inconsistent with reality as science has shown.
here's a favorite listing just to start with: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/science/long.html
I really think it's important that you understand that science is not about absolutes. When Christians commit as a matter of faith to a certain doctrine or fundamentalist interpretation of scripture, that's in itself unscientific. Classical Physics was adapted to incorporate Quantum Mechanics. Original natural selection has incorporated a number of discoveries to become Modern Synthesis Evolution. Old ideas are almost never determined to be just wrong, like 'humours' in medicine. There is a building of idea upon idea to improve our understanding, and modern science reflects a relatively strong understanding of our universe. That's why we can shoot a probe off the planet and land it 10 years later on a comet. That's not a miracle to just believe blindly but to understand the origins and purposes of for future recreation.
Science and History in the Bible
Capella's Guide to Atheism -Was Bible Cosmology ahead of its time? -The Biblical flat earth/solid sky dome universe -Did the Exodus really happen?
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CPT Jason Torpy
SGT Luke Fouquier "I was actually interested and prepared for a dialog."
On this thread? ha! you're not paying attention, you dolt! you rube! just kidding... good luck in your search. I'll hang out with that withering genius, that legendary martyr, the great DW, and his worthy sidekick Capt Jeff.
On this thread? ha! you're not paying attention, you dolt! you rube! just kidding... good luck in your search. I'll hang out with that withering genius, that legendary martyr, the great DW, and his worthy sidekick Capt Jeff.
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What is so hard about not taking one? You might offend the person handing them out? Doubtful.
If Christianity offends you, then don't be a Christian. If being Muslim offends you, don't be a Muslim and don't read the Quran. No one is forcing them to stick out their hand and say 'Please sir... Can I have another?'
Im offended at the fact that it is becoming offensive for me to PRAY with my troops. It is becoming offensive to someone who doesn't even believe. Then don't pray with us. I will still pray for you, but you do not have to reciprocate. Because why? Thats not what its about.
Ugh.. Get over it. If you don't want a Bible then don't take one. If you don't want some inspirational Psalms to help you through your journey then don't read it. Or heck, take it and send it to me. I will gladly use it
If Christianity offends you, then don't be a Christian. If being Muslim offends you, don't be a Muslim and don't read the Quran. No one is forcing them to stick out their hand and say 'Please sir... Can I have another?'
Im offended at the fact that it is becoming offensive for me to PRAY with my troops. It is becoming offensive to someone who doesn't even believe. Then don't pray with us. I will still pray for you, but you do not have to reciprocate. Because why? Thats not what its about.
Ugh.. Get over it. If you don't want a Bible then don't take one. If you don't want some inspirational Psalms to help you through your journey then don't read it. Or heck, take it and send it to me. I will gladly use it
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SGT (Join to see)
SSG Brad Porter, the "powers that be" is actually composed of the members of the court of public opinion, which leads us here.
"None of us care one way or the other because you can't take God out of the equation and you will die miserably trying."
Your god isn't in my equation. And, did you read anything I said before going full-on keyboard ninja?
The Guard didn't enter into the equation here. I'd venture to guess that I blend in with green trees while sporting "urban" camouflage about as well as you do.
"None of us care one way or the other because you can't take God out of the equation and you will die miserably trying."
Your god isn't in my equation. And, did you read anything I said before going full-on keyboard ninja?
The Guard didn't enter into the equation here. I'd venture to guess that I blend in with green trees while sporting "urban" camouflage about as well as you do.
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SGT (Join to see)
SSG Brad Porter, if we took the title of the article at face value, nobody who is not Guard would care, so it doesn't matter, right? Nope.
And nothing wrong with ninjas, keyboard or otherwise. There is power in a sneak attack.
And nothing wrong with ninjas, keyboard or otherwise. There is power in a sneak attack.
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Capt Jeff S.
"That was a stupid remark."
Stupid is as stupid does SSG P, B!
Am pretty sure you could have found another word to use when addressing seniors, whether they're your seniors or not. Try to be more professional. If you're SM, you haven't had enough life experience to school a MSgt -- regardless of whether they're SM or not, OR your perception of how inappropriate or stupid their comment was.
>> Respect the rank and you will demonstrate yourself to be the professional in the conversation. <<
I give you props for at least limiting your stupid comment to MSgt Howell's remark and not him personally. And that's the ONLY reason you didn't get my downvote. Whatever he said, he's gone now, so I'm not saying that what you said was incorrect... there's just better, more professional ways of saying it. : )
Even when others are in the wrong, you lose with responses like that. Your credibility and professional reputation are on the line. I have heard from other SM that things they have said on social media (including Rallypoint!) have indeed gotten them in trouble at the workplace.
So, am going to close with this bit of fatherly advice: "DO try to learn from the mistakes of others and in so doing you will avoid the embarrassment and consequence of repeating them."
Stupid is as stupid does SSG P, B!
Am pretty sure you could have found another word to use when addressing seniors, whether they're your seniors or not. Try to be more professional. If you're SM, you haven't had enough life experience to school a MSgt -- regardless of whether they're SM or not, OR your perception of how inappropriate or stupid their comment was.
>> Respect the rank and you will demonstrate yourself to be the professional in the conversation. <<
I give you props for at least limiting your stupid comment to MSgt Howell's remark and not him personally. And that's the ONLY reason you didn't get my downvote. Whatever he said, he's gone now, so I'm not saying that what you said was incorrect... there's just better, more professional ways of saying it. : )
Even when others are in the wrong, you lose with responses like that. Your credibility and professional reputation are on the line. I have heard from other SM that things they have said on social media (including Rallypoint!) have indeed gotten them in trouble at the workplace.
So, am going to close with this bit of fatherly advice: "DO try to learn from the mistakes of others and in so doing you will avoid the embarrassment and consequence of repeating them."
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Atheist extremists lashing out to destroy others rights instead of bolstering their own again. Feeble approach in my opinion.
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SSG (Join to see)
SFC Mike Sisco, I concur with your statement. I know every single one of us are imperfect human beings and prone to making mistakes regardless of any particular affiliation. I try not to put people into one basket but I will admit my mistake in doing that on occasion. I definitely believe in holding each person accountable for their actions or inactions. What I find to be frustrating is when someone does something wrong that a great number of others, with the same affiliation, will vehemently defend the person as if they are the victim. I see it all the time with gender, ethnicity, color, sexuality, religious, etc. It's insane.
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SSG (Join to see)
What concern is it of theirs? If they don't want one, then they don't have to take one
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SSG (Join to see)
It is a matter of concern if only one group is being provided the opportunity to promote their literature. At that point, it becomes a de facto endorsement of a particular religious viewpoint. Another possible point of conflict is if a superior is handing the religious literature out, leading to a coercive atmosphere. That is in violation of several regulations, and court rulings.
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So...Atheists do not believe in God. What confuses me is why these Atheist Extremist are so threatened by a book that is basically fiction to them? I admit, I'm not the best Christian but last time I checked the Bible teaches to love each other, to help the poor and to have faith in a Savior, what is so threatening?
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SPC David Hannaman
I think it also bears mentioning that Caananite genocide is Old Testament... The basis rituals and belief structure for Judiasm... Christs death and resurrection swept that all away and created a new covenant that is the basis for the "Christian" faith.
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CPT Jason Torpy
don't round down concerns about abuse of power to simply being 'offended'. Christians aren't just 'offended' if they're told they can't worship in their homes or churches or put out religious displays on their front lawn. That would be an abuse of power. Of course that never happens, but it would be more than a matter of just being offended.
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CPO William Hughes
Well SFC, maybe you should read all the bible and not just cherry-pick the parts you agree with. In 1Samuel 15:3,7 "Slay both man and woman, infant and suckling...., 1Kings 11:15 Every man in Edom, killed by Joab and David....2Kings 2:23,24 42 children eaten by two bears after Elisha curses them in the name of the Lord for making fun of his bald head.... Just how does this teach to love each other?? You have been thoroughly brainwashed as a child by parents or others as have so many children. It is a form of child abuse in my opinion!
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SFC Thomas Skinner
Who's cherry picking now. Your comment ignores the overall lesson of the Bible completely, I did not cherry pick any verses but rather gave an overview of what the bible says about how we should treat each other. Every cherry picked verse you googled and pasted here to support your opinion comes from the old testament, there are a lot of stories in the old testament of Gods wrath and his punishments when people turned to evil or immoral ways. What you miss completely is that he sent his only son to be an example for us and ultimately to be sacrificed to pay the debt for our sins because we are incapable of living a sinless life. Jesus teaches us to love each other, to take care of each other, and to resist temptations of immorality. We are also expected to share the Work of God and of salvation through Jesus Christ. You are entitled to your opinion but I do recommend you develop a better understanding of the subject for which you are forming your opinion. Many people, atheist, muslims, and others have sought to disprove the Bible and ended up becoming Christians themselves, it takes a pretty hard heart to turn away from Jesus once you learn who he is and what the Gospel is all about.
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As has been stated in so many posts, today everything is offensive. Now by definition, if any US government department/agency/affiliate, whatever, is used in the same sentence as God or any other religious terms, this constitutes the US Government supporting religion.
So when does the US start spending the tens of billions of dollars its going to cost to reprint and remint our money??? No matter what the argument against the government supporting religion is, not one person has refused to cash a paycheck on the principle that our money has the word "God" on it. Apparently being a hypocrite at that level is OK.
So when does the US start spending the tens of billions of dollars its going to cost to reprint and remint our money??? No matter what the argument against the government supporting religion is, not one person has refused to cash a paycheck on the principle that our money has the word "God" on it. Apparently being a hypocrite at that level is OK.
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SGT (Join to see)
SSG P, B, well, it would make this argument obsolete, hmm? Doesn't do anything for me...or against me.
Can we pick up this topic when we are discussing Satanic chaplains? ;)
Can we pick up this topic when we are discussing Satanic chaplains? ;)
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SGT (Join to see)
Wait and see...if we live that long, handsome.
Apparently, both deities need confirmation of their omnipotence.
I'll consider this a draw.
Apparently, both deities need confirmation of their omnipotence.
I'll consider this a draw.
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SA Harold Hansmann
I am not offended by having the words "In God We Trust" on our currency. That was the agreement betwixt our founding fathers. Those gentlemen had the courage to initiate the start of repelling the British crown from this great land.
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LTC (Join to see)
When do we spend the money to reprint the money because of religion? We did that in 1957 when the wonderful motto "E Pluribus Unum" that united all Americans was replaced by the divisive "In God We Trust" which specifically makes atheists and agnostics feel like outsiders.
We did the same thing with our wonderful Pledge of Allegiance that used to unite all Americans without any mention of a deity (written by a Baptist minister, no less), again hijacked by the evangelical crowd to make anyone who isn't religious appear to also not be a real patriot or even a real American.
"E Pluribus Unum" and "One Nation, Indivisible", those weren't offensive to anyone, excluded nobody and didn't make anyone uncomfortable.
So when should we spend money fixing the money? How about right now. Lets start with putting a woman's face and an African American face on some of our major currency, restore our national motto and pledge of allegiance to their former all-inclusive glory and if a young soldier wants a bible, all they should have to do is ask for one, rather than have them thrust on everyone and those who refuse made to look like outsiders.
And while on the subject of basic training, if we must give young recruits a few hours off on Sunday to attend church, those non-religious recruits in their company should have the same amount of time to read books they find meaningful, instead of extra hours spent buffing floors. I'm sure many soldiers would choose modern fiction over Bronze-Age religion if given equal time.
We did the same thing with our wonderful Pledge of Allegiance that used to unite all Americans without any mention of a deity (written by a Baptist minister, no less), again hijacked by the evangelical crowd to make anyone who isn't religious appear to also not be a real patriot or even a real American.
"E Pluribus Unum" and "One Nation, Indivisible", those weren't offensive to anyone, excluded nobody and didn't make anyone uncomfortable.
So when should we spend money fixing the money? How about right now. Lets start with putting a woman's face and an African American face on some of our major currency, restore our national motto and pledge of allegiance to their former all-inclusive glory and if a young soldier wants a bible, all they should have to do is ask for one, rather than have them thrust on everyone and those who refuse made to look like outsiders.
And while on the subject of basic training, if we must give young recruits a few hours off on Sunday to attend church, those non-religious recruits in their company should have the same amount of time to read books they find meaningful, instead of extra hours spent buffing floors. I'm sure many soldiers would choose modern fiction over Bronze-Age religion if given equal time.
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