Posted on Mar 8, 2017
Balancing commitments: What do you do when no one is willing to work with you?
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I've noticed quite a few threads about balancing employer commitments and college commitments against Reserve and Guard commitments for drill and AT.
What do you do if NO ONE is willing to work with you? In the case of a school commitment, what happens when your unit changes the schedule multiple times, and is not willing to let you RST (or do an alternate AT), but your professors aren't willing to work with you? Is it really right to have to then put off school (or potentially fail) because your unit can't get its act together and give you a stable drill/AT schedule?
In the case of an employer, what do you do if your job won't work with you and your unit won't either?
What do you do if NO ONE is willing to work with you? In the case of a school commitment, what happens when your unit changes the schedule multiple times, and is not willing to let you RST (or do an alternate AT), but your professors aren't willing to work with you? Is it really right to have to then put off school (or potentially fail) because your unit can't get its act together and give you a stable drill/AT schedule?
In the case of an employer, what do you do if your job won't work with you and your unit won't either?
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Edited 9 y ago
Posted 9 y ago
Responses: 10
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Chief, your post reminds me of the axiom about most questions being statements in disguise. Let me guess, you've unfortunately been there and done that?
I've never had that issue. My unit has always been organized enough to stick to its training schedule and provide dates well ahead of time, and it generally accommodates scheduling issues when it can when they arise. If one's unit is not so organized and will not assist those who have to suffer due to their lack of organization, perhaps it's time to look at other units.
But if that isn't an option, many schools have policies in place to allow for time away from class to address military issues. If the instructor wants to be a douche, contact the appropriate dean and/or coordinate with any student veteran or ROTC groups on campus to see what insight or assistance they can provide. Might as well, you're paying for that education, and it should be worth the time and effort to ensure you get it. As far as employment goes, there are certain legal protections; it would be worth exploring the limits of those protections though before going to the boss.
I don't envy those with the issues you bring up. As I said, I don't have such issues; nonetheless, I can't well balance grad school, work, family, life (which I apparently still need to get), and my Reserve commitments, and what will give is the Reserves. My contract is up in May. Two more drills. Six more drill days. Then I'm out.
Good luck.
I've never had that issue. My unit has always been organized enough to stick to its training schedule and provide dates well ahead of time, and it generally accommodates scheduling issues when it can when they arise. If one's unit is not so organized and will not assist those who have to suffer due to their lack of organization, perhaps it's time to look at other units.
But if that isn't an option, many schools have policies in place to allow for time away from class to address military issues. If the instructor wants to be a douche, contact the appropriate dean and/or coordinate with any student veteran or ROTC groups on campus to see what insight or assistance they can provide. Might as well, you're paying for that education, and it should be worth the time and effort to ensure you get it. As far as employment goes, there are certain legal protections; it would be worth exploring the limits of those protections though before going to the boss.
I don't envy those with the issues you bring up. As I said, I don't have such issues; nonetheless, I can't well balance grad school, work, family, life (which I apparently still need to get), and my Reserve commitments, and what will give is the Reserves. My contract is up in May. Two more drills. Six more drill days. Then I'm out.
Good luck.
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CW3 (Join to see)
Well, my situation was a little different, as my job WAS willing to work with me. I work for the most military friendly employer in the area, Booz Allen Hamilton. It took some adjustment, but my at-the-time commander was successfully able to bully me into an EXTRA two weeks of annual training over and above that which I had already done.....
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SGT Dave Tracy
CW3 (Join to see) - Two weeks extra?!
Damn. Big Green Weenie strikes again.
Our unit sometimes requests volunteers, but I don't recall them ever strong-arming anyone. That qualifies as "sucking"!
Damn. Big Green Weenie strikes again.
Our unit sometimes requests volunteers, but I don't recall them ever strong-arming anyone. That qualifies as "sucking"!
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CW3 (Join to see)
Yup, and I got raked over the coals here on RP for it. Plenty of idiots thought I should just suck it up.
Which I did, and then the commander stuck me on a data entry mission. At the time, I was a senior Signal CW2 with a Master's degree in Software Engineering, and it was soooo important for me to do 2 extra weeks of AT so I could get stuck on a data entry mission that he wouldn't let me push to automate.
Which I did, and then the commander stuck me on a data entry mission. At the time, I was a senior Signal CW2 with a Master's degree in Software Engineering, and it was soooo important for me to do 2 extra weeks of AT so I could get stuck on a data entry mission that he wouldn't let me push to automate.
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Where there is a will, there is a way. When I decided to get my masters, I wanted to attend a local state university. They only offered daytime classes. I asked my boss if I could flex my schedule two days a week, which he disapproved. I found a for profit school that offered night classes and left that job as soon as I graduated.
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That's a tough position when no one will work with you.
The easiest solution is to pick a school that is geared towards military folks. AMU is a great example, but there are others out there.
Having a unit that isn't flexible is tough. Easiest answer, change units. I recommend the IMA program (both the Army and Air Force have it). Getting into the IMA can be tough as the average recruiter has no clue about it. For those that don't know, IMA stands for Individual Mobilization Augmentee. You are a reservist assigned to an active duty unit. Your obligation is 30 days a year. You choose your own schedule. Its a great program.
Dealing with a job that wont work with you is tough too. Again, the IMA program solves that issue.
The easiest solution is to pick a school that is geared towards military folks. AMU is a great example, but there are others out there.
Having a unit that isn't flexible is tough. Easiest answer, change units. I recommend the IMA program (both the Army and Air Force have it). Getting into the IMA can be tough as the average recruiter has no clue about it. For those that don't know, IMA stands for Individual Mobilization Augmentee. You are a reservist assigned to an active duty unit. Your obligation is 30 days a year. You choose your own schedule. Its a great program.
Dealing with a job that wont work with you is tough too. Again, the IMA program solves that issue.
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I've never dealt with this from the military side. I guess I've been fortunate enough to have CoCs that believe in covering butts. I have dealt with it from the civilian employment side. I fixed that by getting on as a miltech with the Guard. It's my understanding that employers have no choice but to work with you when it comes to your military commitments. I'd contact ESGR or the Dept of Labor in your state and see what your options are concerning that.
As far as school goes, I have no experience dealing with that but I have seen a number of people have that issue.
As far as school goes, I have no experience dealing with that but I have seen a number of people have that issue.
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I don't have any experience with the school side of things, but work conflict generally depends on the size and type of business you work. During most of my National Guard time, I worked for a national building supply chain that had a number of federal contracts, so at corporate level they went out of their way to work with the Guard and Reserve employees. Although I had a couple of managers gripe to HR about my Guard time, HR was always on my side. I probably abused it a bit, since I volunteered for any school or duty that would advance by career. That is still federally protected BTW. As company commander, the smaller employers were generally the problem and it's hard to have much leverage with them even though they are legally required to let you off the same as the big guys. I guess we were lucky locally and the Universities worked with the students if they had conflict.
The one the Guard side, it you have a unit that isn't trying to help you maintain civilian employment, within reason, look for another unit. I will say as a commander, leadership people would have had to have a damn good reason for not attending AT. To be a bit of a hard ass about it, we are all volunteers and we actively sought our positions. If you can't make the sacrifices in time to do the job, it may be time to do something else.
The one the Guard side, it you have a unit that isn't trying to help you maintain civilian employment, within reason, look for another unit. I will say as a commander, leadership people would have had to have a damn good reason for not attending AT. To be a bit of a hard ass about it, we are all volunteers and we actively sought our positions. If you can't make the sacrifices in time to do the job, it may be time to do something else.
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Most universities have policies and/or organizational elements that serve to work on the behalf of students who have military commitments. If the professor won't budge, then the institution has the means to engage the professor to see if something can be worked out. The problems are normally that a) the student doesn't know about them (most likely) or b) the student isn't telling the full truth about their circumstances (not as common). We have an office dedicated to military students and their issues. We also have a university-level task force that addresses student concerns. We also have a student organization made up of military students. I'm not aware of this ever being a concern at my university, but I realize there can be quite a bit of variance across academia.
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It eventually gets down to priorities.
First, you try to work with all the relevant parties and find something that works.
If that is ultimately a dead end, you need to decide what thing(s) are most important and run with that.
First, you try to work with all the relevant parties and find something that works.
If that is ultimately a dead end, you need to decide what thing(s) are most important and run with that.
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Work with the academic chair of the department or the administration and use any verbiage on the website where they state support for veterans.
I ran into this issue in law school and I had to formally request out of AT, my rating was hammered for the two years I had conflicts.
I was able to get adjustments from civilian work and graduate school for my MBA. It is a person to person negotiation, appeal to the professors sense of duty but understand they have to be fair and consistent to all students.
I ran into this issue in law school and I had to formally request out of AT, my rating was hammered for the two years I had conflicts.
I was able to get adjustments from civilian work and graduate school for my MBA. It is a person to person negotiation, appeal to the professors sense of duty but understand they have to be fair and consistent to all students.
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While I am thankful to have completed my 8 years all on active duty and never having to deal with this type of thing, I wonder how often something like this happens. How often are Reserve and Guard service members faced with something like this? Is there a proper procedure you are supposed to follow when something like this happens or are you left to figure it out on your own?
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COL Vincent Stoneking
SGT Ben Keen Yes, I can attest that these kinds of conflicts are common. Every reservist/guardsman will have a different experience depending on their situation & combination of unit/employer and/or school.
With employers, there are governing federal laws (short version: they HAVE to accommodate & cannot retaliate, you should give them as much notice as you can) and often state law. With schools, I am not familiar with the legal side, but most claim to work with reservists to accommodate military responsibilities. On the military side, there is generally policy to lock schedules in as far in the future as possible, and change dates as little as possible to give predicability. In my experience, it is the military side that fails its task to most often.
In regard to the situation that CW3 (Join to see) mentions above (I don't recall commenting on the earlier discussion, but I believe I would have been one of the ones giving him the advice he didn't like), that is very common - the surprise "oh! That wasn't your AT!!" It seems that always catches people flat footed the first time it happens to them. I have multiple times had the opposite happen - where they sent me to a school on AT orders (improperly) and then told me that I couldn't attend AT. In fact, it happened often enough that I developed a "shot across the bow" email template that I would send as soon as I got the orders ("I noticed that these orders put me on AT status for SCHOOL. I think that is improper, but have no issues with it. However, please be aware that, as you are only funded for XX days of AT per Soldier, you may have issues funding my attendance at AT. I have no issues doing both, but the funding of these orders may lead to issues with unit funding down the road. Sincerely...").
I never had any issues with school conflicts personally, but many of my Soldiers, and not just the younger ones, did. I often found that a non-form (i.e. written in everyday english) letter on letterhead and with an "impressive" signature block would allow the Soldier to get the flexibility they needed. It seemed that many schools/instructors thought that the Soldier was somehow gaming the system to get extra time to study or get intel on the exam, etc. Letting the school know that it was non-optional seemed to fix this. In the cases where the school was inflexible, and I had the authority, I would usually let the Soldier do an alternate AT if I could spare them.
Employers are tricky. Generally, issues with employers fall into one of four buckets.
1. They don't know the law. Usually polite education will fix this (if not, they will become #2 or #4 below). They won't necessarily like it (more below), but will comply.
2. They know the law, but think they can ignore it. These ones, you either quit or take legal action against. If you have options, I would move on, because even if you win, they can easily become #4.
3. They are a small employer. They mean well. But it is actually a REAL hardship for them. You are one of 10 employees, and have low density skills or do something they cannot easily replace - especially on short notice. They want to be supportive, but it really hurts their bottom line. The best thing here is lots of advance notice and predictability. These are also the the group the will really push for you to use your vacation for military duty.
4. The PALS (passive aggressive little shits). These guys know the law, and will abide it to the letter. They also don't like it, and will let you know in a thousand little ways without ever making an actionable statement in writing or in front of witnesses, or taking an action without a clear paper trail of justification that has "nothing to do with" your military service. These are the guys that give the waitress the Thursday morning shift instead of the Saturday evening one, who have the cook work a split shift, who decide to put EVERYONE on a rotating shift. They start putting out next week's schedule on Sundays at 7PM, etc. The generally do nothing actionable in court, but make the Soldier's life miserable enough that they quit.
I quit one job that fell into the PALS category (it was glorious!), but have generally not had employment issues. However, I have had many Soldiers that did, and a few that finally had to decide to quit the guard (employer puts food on the table!).
With employers, there are governing federal laws (short version: they HAVE to accommodate & cannot retaliate, you should give them as much notice as you can) and often state law. With schools, I am not familiar with the legal side, but most claim to work with reservists to accommodate military responsibilities. On the military side, there is generally policy to lock schedules in as far in the future as possible, and change dates as little as possible to give predicability. In my experience, it is the military side that fails its task to most often.
In regard to the situation that CW3 (Join to see) mentions above (I don't recall commenting on the earlier discussion, but I believe I would have been one of the ones giving him the advice he didn't like), that is very common - the surprise "oh! That wasn't your AT!!" It seems that always catches people flat footed the first time it happens to them. I have multiple times had the opposite happen - where they sent me to a school on AT orders (improperly) and then told me that I couldn't attend AT. In fact, it happened often enough that I developed a "shot across the bow" email template that I would send as soon as I got the orders ("I noticed that these orders put me on AT status for SCHOOL. I think that is improper, but have no issues with it. However, please be aware that, as you are only funded for XX days of AT per Soldier, you may have issues funding my attendance at AT. I have no issues doing both, but the funding of these orders may lead to issues with unit funding down the road. Sincerely...").
I never had any issues with school conflicts personally, but many of my Soldiers, and not just the younger ones, did. I often found that a non-form (i.e. written in everyday english) letter on letterhead and with an "impressive" signature block would allow the Soldier to get the flexibility they needed. It seemed that many schools/instructors thought that the Soldier was somehow gaming the system to get extra time to study or get intel on the exam, etc. Letting the school know that it was non-optional seemed to fix this. In the cases where the school was inflexible, and I had the authority, I would usually let the Soldier do an alternate AT if I could spare them.
Employers are tricky. Generally, issues with employers fall into one of four buckets.
1. They don't know the law. Usually polite education will fix this (if not, they will become #2 or #4 below). They won't necessarily like it (more below), but will comply.
2. They know the law, but think they can ignore it. These ones, you either quit or take legal action against. If you have options, I would move on, because even if you win, they can easily become #4.
3. They are a small employer. They mean well. But it is actually a REAL hardship for them. You are one of 10 employees, and have low density skills or do something they cannot easily replace - especially on short notice. They want to be supportive, but it really hurts their bottom line. The best thing here is lots of advance notice and predictability. These are also the the group the will really push for you to use your vacation for military duty.
4. The PALS (passive aggressive little shits). These guys know the law, and will abide it to the letter. They also don't like it, and will let you know in a thousand little ways without ever making an actionable statement in writing or in front of witnesses, or taking an action without a clear paper trail of justification that has "nothing to do with" your military service. These are the guys that give the waitress the Thursday morning shift instead of the Saturday evening one, who have the cook work a split shift, who decide to put EVERYONE on a rotating shift. They start putting out next week's schedule on Sundays at 7PM, etc. The generally do nothing actionable in court, but make the Soldier's life miserable enough that they quit.
I quit one job that fell into the PALS category (it was glorious!), but have generally not had employment issues. However, I have had many Soldiers that did, and a few that finally had to decide to quit the guard (employer puts food on the table!).
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CW3 (Join to see)
COL Vincent Stoneking Regarding #2, what if you don't HAVE options? What then? The civilian employer, as you so correctly stated, is the one that puts food on the table, clothes on your back, and a roof over your head.
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SGT Ben Keen
COL Vincent Stoneking - I might have to use that "PALS" as a reference in some things I'm working on! LOL Great comment!
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COL Vincent Stoneking
CW3 (Join to see) - In that case, you have a tough choice, and have to determine where your priorities lay. Taking legal action is risky - and expensive - and time consuming. If you don't have ready options for changing employers, you may have to consider whether you can continue reserve duty right now.
I have known several Soldiers, both E and O, who decided to drop the Reserves/NG (also not always an easy thing to pull off, situation dependent).
I make no claims to it being easy. Just trying to give a well grounded answer to Ben's question.
I have known several Soldiers, both E and O, who decided to drop the Reserves/NG (also not always an easy thing to pull off, situation dependent).
I make no claims to it being easy. Just trying to give a well grounded answer to Ben's question.
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