Posted on Sep 2, 2020
Can I be forced to shave if I have a shaving profile?
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What’s up everybody I’m pv2 jones and I been in the army a little over 9 months, I love serving until it comes to shaving. I’ve tried everything and my face bumps up terrible man I’m talking about it looks disgusting, plenty of my Drill Sgts in AIT tried teaching me how to shave but it doesn’t work. So I just got to my new unit about 2 and a half months ago and I was still shaving even though it was painful and it looked Terrible, one day an NCO From another unit told me that I NEED to go get a shaving profile because my face just looks terrible and she can tell I was in pain so I promised her I will go get one and have them check it out . After my first appointment the dermatologist gave me a permanent shaving profile and told me that I don’t need to shave atleast until my bumps are clear. So a few weeks go by and I have a little beard (still in regulation 1/4 of an inch) so After pt my squad leader pulls me to The side and starts cursing me out at the top of his lungs saying I need to shave , I told him respectfully I have a shaving profile and it hurts for me to shave he stares at me and replied Under his breath “like every other black person in the army that can’t use razors” I didn’t say anything but it kind of hurt because I don’t want to be a odd ball in my company (I’m in a infantry company btw) so later that day we go into work to clean weapons and he calls me over and apologizes about this morning and I told him it was ok he then said that I need to shave still if I want to make it in the military and I replied and told him I’m not shaving so he can F’ing forget about it he then told me since I cursed him my punishment will be to shave or receive a article for disrespecting a NCO so later I went to my barracks room and shaved during lunch and came back in he then told me that no matter what my profile says I need to listen to him and shave I told my platoon sgt about this whole Situation and he told me I need to listen to my squad leader and shave because the army just gives shaving profiles to anyone. Is this right?
Platoon Sergeant
Platoon Leader
Commander
CCMSgt
NCO Academy
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 254
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You have a profile you need to follow it. But you need to make sure you keep it within the regulations of the profile (1/4 inch). Only your commander can override the doctor’s “recommendation” for the profile. Has your commander signed/approved the profile? If you haven’t, you need to get that done. When he/she signs it you can mention the problem you have with your NCOs. Good luck.
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MSgt Marvin Kinderknecht
This is the first time I have read (heard) anyone who is not medically qualified overide a doctor. TAKE IT ON UP THE LATER!!
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MSgt Marvin Kinderknecht
SGT (Join to see) - My wife was in a terrible accident when she was 9 months pregnant We were afraid she would lose the baby and maybe her life .The commander said I should deploy anyway. I went to the Flight Surgeon and he gave me a 90 day extension. Pissed the commander off, but he complied.
I always questioned my superiors (Military or Civilian) what would you do If I got killed in a crash?? I guess I would have Fred do it.
I always questioned my superiors (Military or Civilian) what would you do If I got killed in a crash?? I guess I would have Fred do it.
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SFC Clifton Brown
Excellent advice, Colonel! Both the shaving profile and the racial slur issued should indeed be elevated to the CO. I had "pseudo" (Pseudofolliculitis Barbae) when I was a 17 year old recruit and even after 50 years, I remember how painful it was during BCT. Depilatories were very messy, time consuming and many times, exacerbated the problem. Ever though I received a profile years later, the facial scarring never went away. Getting a good hard seal on the M17 protective mask was a problem as well. I emphasize with the private.
As for the racial comment, it appears someone needs a modicum of sensitivity training.
As for the racial comment, it appears someone needs a modicum of sensitivity training.
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Sgt Tee Organ
By and large NCOs need their troops to stay in the game, It's a shit to harder on everyone when there is less people in the shop. With that being said, learning about the health and welfare of your troops is essential to making that happen, and providing them with those tools to get themselves as an All Up Round. These people are the very reason you are successful in everything from maintaining your equipment to killing the enemy with ax handles and plastic cookware. Less of that talent is harder on everyone, but everyone working together and coming out in the end is money in the bank. Leave the flex in the gym, use your head and lead (inspire) in the shop and at the command!
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Maj Rob Drury
CW3 (Join to see) - I'm guessing it's because he posts with the same level of integrity with which he probably served.
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You are required to shave/trim your beard within the confines of your profile and no more than 1/4 inch. Keep your profile on you at all times. And, if this NCO really did say “like every other black person in the army that can’t use razors,” then I would recommend you address this with your EOA and/or EOL, as this could be constituted as a racial slur. Could be. They will be the SMEs to answer that question, though.
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SMSgt Lawrence McCarter
All true, and Yes keep the written profile with you if Your on a profile. Problems can often be handled by the Doctor as in reality You are a patient if on profile and those are orders. I have heard Doctors ligh people up that didn't understand that fact. Usually the Medical people can head that off and Yes the EOA people I'm sure could address what may well be a racial slur.
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Report the “like every other black person” comment to your EO rep time now. That NCOs sounds exactly like the type of person we don’t need in the Army. He didn’t make a mistake, he showed you who he truly is.
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1LT (Join to see)
PV2 (Join to see)
I’d like to follow up on this. Did you report your SL’s statements to your EO rep?
I’d like to follow up on this. Did you report your SL’s statements to your EO rep?
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Being told that you’re like every other black person in the Army who can’t use razors is definitely an EO violation. FYI white people in the Army have shaving profiles as well, razor bumps don’t care about your race.
Your squad leader doesn’t have the authority to give you an article 15 and they don’t have the authority to require you to break a profile. Disrespecting an NCO because you swore in front of them in an Infantry battalion is a pretty far stretch. If you weren’t allowed to say “Fuck this” or “Fuck that” in an infantry battalion the Army would cease to function.
I would strongly encourage you to seek out alternative ways of shaving because, let’s face it, the Army thinks clean shaven = good Soldier. Not that a beard equals a bad Soldier, but a lot of the Army works off of first impressions and sometimes a first impression opens opportunities for you. A good strategy I’ve seen employed is to shave every so often and keep it trimmed low between shavings. A good safety razor and a thorough prep of the surface by using hot towels or a hot shower will also help. But definitely give a shot to the safety razor and going with the grain. The razors are cheaper and sharper than any of those multi blade garbage razors most people use. I have quite a few friends with razor bumps that swear by them. I also use one and I love it.
Your squad leader doesn’t have the authority to give you an article 15 and they don’t have the authority to require you to break a profile. Disrespecting an NCO because you swore in front of them in an Infantry battalion is a pretty far stretch. If you weren’t allowed to say “Fuck this” or “Fuck that” in an infantry battalion the Army would cease to function.
I would strongly encourage you to seek out alternative ways of shaving because, let’s face it, the Army thinks clean shaven = good Soldier. Not that a beard equals a bad Soldier, but a lot of the Army works off of first impressions and sometimes a first impression opens opportunities for you. A good strategy I’ve seen employed is to shave every so often and keep it trimmed low between shavings. A good safety razor and a thorough prep of the surface by using hot towels or a hot shower will also help. But definitely give a shot to the safety razor and going with the grain. The razors are cheaper and sharper than any of those multi blade garbage razors most people use. I have quite a few friends with razor bumps that swear by them. I also use one and I love it.
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SMSgt Lawrence McCarter
Also one individual I worked with had a profile for that but as solution found a substance that a cream was applied which could be taken off with abutter knife. It worked but certainly check with Medical people before taking on anything like that and in His case I believe that was a Doctors recommendation. I know when was in the bathroom shaving He was doing that and I'd never seen anything like it before. The profiles I understood, just hadn't seen that solution before but I think hte other steps had to be followed first and this was a follow up. As it was He was an NCO and back then I wasn't yet and He kept Himself squared away as most out guys did.
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Sorry you’re dealing with poor leadership. You are required to obey lawful orders, but ordering you to violate a profile is not lawful IMO. You are being ordered to injur a government employee, you. Take advantage of the unit 1st Sgt open door time. He or she can mentor your NCOs. Follow your profile and the regs exactly. Continue to show respect.
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Sgt Tee Organ
Exactly! Gloves come off at that point. In the field this stuff generally metes itself out. In garrison it gets shifted more than anything. Great Advice. In the Marines we had that Squadron Gunny which served that same billet. Like a secret agent that has the SgtMaJ's ear and a ton of influence. The "secret sauce" of the Squadron. Hahaha.
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PV2 (Join to see) To be clear, I am not that guy who goes to EO and makes complaints. However, your squad leader clearly violated your rights and military standards with his comment “like every other black person in the army that can’t use razors“! Irrespective of the shaving waiver issue, it is clear to me that your NCOs need a little "education" on how to be fair and unbiased with their soldiers. I advise you to proceed with caution though. When you are making a complaint of this kind, you will have to have all your ducks in a row. If nobody else heard the comment and the NCO denies it, you could be in for a severe, uphill battle. Good luck in your career. Please know that not every NCO you encounter will be like this poor excuse for a NCO.
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SGT Alan Dike
SFC Mike Thompson - He was guilty before he apologized.. he knew he F'd up and was covering his 4th point of contact. The second the words came out of his mouth he was guilty.
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LCpl Sidney Green
I would accept his apology and move on. But that's just how I was raised. Everybody makes mistakes; I know I've certainly made some whoppers.
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Your commander CAN choose not to accept your profile. A profile, afterall, is a recommendation from a physician to a commander. Anyone lower than the CO in your chain of command cannot tell you to disregard this profile. I will add that your 1SG is usually in on the decision, so you may receive word that the CoC is disregarding the profile from him or her. Either way, its a Command level decision, nobody lower can force you to shave.
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SGT Jamie Bard
AR 40-502 Section 3-3 says otherwise. The unit commander reviews them and brings any concerns he/she has to the medical provider who wrote the profile. They can request a fitness for duty evaluation to include a profile review by another profiling officer and make deployability determinations. The regulation also states that permanent profiles require a second signature, which has to come from another physician.
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CPT (Join to see)
SGT Jamie Bard it appears that you are right, and that a commander can only alter whether that profile makes the Soldier deployable or nondeployable. Thanks for the correction, I'll add it to the toolbag.
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SFC Clark Adams
SGT Jamie Bard - The Dermatologist is a specialist in skin disorders , I suspect the local General Medical Officers are in no position to challenge the decisions of a specialist. The commander may question anything but they absolutely do not have medical decision making authority unless they are a physician commanding a unit. Permanent profiles are signed after review by the supporting MTF CO.
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SFC Clark Adams
SGT Jamie Bard The MTF commander or his representative sign off on permanent profiles generated by specialty physicians. Commanders may make clarification inquiries but have no medical decision making authority. The deployability of a Soldier based on their physical condition is a commander's purview as based on the written diagnosis in the profile. I strongly suspect a P-3 shaving profile doesn't render a Soldier non deployable as I have seen a heck of lot of deployed personnel with full beards carrying the fight to the enemy.
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It never ceases to amaze me how personal some supervisors take this stuff. So you have a shaving profile. So what? They act like that for every one of their personnel that have a shaving profile they are going to get their pay docked by $100 per month. The other part of this is that if the commanding officer has the authority to disregard the medical recommendation, why would he/she? Why would they want to see you in more pain for a medical condition that is not your fault? The way your issue has been handled is definitely not my style of leadership. I wish you the best.
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