Posted on Dec 7, 2022
If I received ETS orders and clearing papers, can my Chain of Command revoke them and chapter me for not making sufficient body fat progress?
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Earlier today, I conducted a HT/WT with my unit, although the results it shows says that I have gained weight, my screenings from a Body Composition test show that I have increased my overall muscle mass and decreased my overall fat mass.
After concluding the mornings HT/WT I was then informed by an NCO who notified me that my ETS orders can be revoked and that I can still be chaptered by my Command for not making sufficient progress.
My question then, is this: If I received ETS orders and clearing papers, can my Chain of Command revoke them? Can my Chain of Command chapter me despite having ETS orders?
After concluding the mornings HT/WT I was then informed by an NCO who notified me that my ETS orders can be revoked and that I can still be chaptered by my Command for not making sufficient progress.
My question then, is this: If I received ETS orders and clearing papers, can my Chain of Command revoke them? Can my Chain of Command chapter me despite having ETS orders?
Height and Weight
ETS/EAS
Chain of Command
Career Advice
Military Career
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 15
Nope. Empty threat.
Chapter 18s are only used if that is the sole basis for separation. You're a "Chapter 4" separation - Separation for the expiration of service obligation.
Very clear in the reg* - "Separation action under this chapter will not be initiated against a Soldier who meets the criteria for separation under other provisions of this regulation."
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* AR 635-200 (Active Duty Enlisted Administrative Separations), Chapter 18
Chapter 18s are only used if that is the sole basis for separation. You're a "Chapter 4" separation - Separation for the expiration of service obligation.
Very clear in the reg* - "Separation action under this chapter will not be initiated against a Soldier who meets the criteria for separation under other provisions of this regulation."
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* AR 635-200 (Active Duty Enlisted Administrative Separations), Chapter 18
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Not really an answer to your question, but I have never understood the mindset of vindictive leaders trying to create problems that doesn't exist.
They're acting like ETS is a favorable action you need to remove your lag for.
They're acting like ETS is a favorable action you need to remove your lag for.
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Enlisted Soldiers are only allowed to be retained past ETS when being referred to Court Martial.
AR 635-200
1–23. When investigation is initiated with view to trial by court-martial or Soldier is awaiting trial
or result of trial
a. In accordance with UCMJ, Art. 2 and UCMJ, RCM 202(c), a Soldier may be retained after his or her term of
service has expired when one of the following applies:
(1) An investigation of the Soldier’s conduct has been started with a view to trial by court-martial.
(2) Charges have been preferred.
(3) The Soldier has been apprehended, arrested, confined, or otherwise restricted by the appropriate military authority.
You can't even be held past your ETS date to face UCMJ proceedings or punishment.
However, your transition leave can be revoked and you can be flagged. If you were transitioning into the RC, that will be canceled and you'll need a waiver to join the RC or rejoin the RA in the future.
AR 635-200
1–23. When investigation is initiated with view to trial by court-martial or Soldier is awaiting trial
or result of trial
a. In accordance with UCMJ, Art. 2 and UCMJ, RCM 202(c), a Soldier may be retained after his or her term of
service has expired when one of the following applies:
(1) An investigation of the Soldier’s conduct has been started with a view to trial by court-martial.
(2) Charges have been preferred.
(3) The Soldier has been apprehended, arrested, confined, or otherwise restricted by the appropriate military authority.
You can't even be held past your ETS date to face UCMJ proceedings or punishment.
However, your transition leave can be revoked and you can be flagged. If you were transitioning into the RC, that will be canceled and you'll need a waiver to join the RC or rejoin the RA in the future.
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SFC (Join to see)
CSM Charles Hayden incapacitation/hospitalization and ETS while enroute back to the US are the only other two authorized reasons a person can be retained past ETS without their written consent.
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Cpl Vic Burk
SFC (Join to see) - I saw a guy get held after his enlistment expires for medical reasons. Two weeks before his EAS he broke his leg in a skiing accident. They wouldn't release him until his leg healed. Really pissed him off!
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SFC Barbara Layman
I had been accepted to BNOC and as a result, my ETS was extended by 3 months. Instead of a 15 Jun ETS, I was released on Sep 15.
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Could be..... Yes. But it would really be a hassle. There is a lot of paper work to separate someone for failing. Most likely you will get flagged and you will continue to ETS. I don't think they would hinder the system for such an event. The counseling is something that they have to do. Even if they recommend you for separation the packet would take a couple weeks to even be considered.
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I am assuming that you are already on the Weight Program? If you are on the Weight Program, you are already flagged with separation depending on the progress you make during the program. There is no weight standard, the standard has always been body fat, so if you decreased your body fat, why would they not consider that progress? Google AR 600-9 and you can find out all the rules by yourself.
As Cpt. Rosa stated, even if you were approaching the limits of ABCP, but were about to ETS, the most likely course of action would be counseling and letting you ETS.
As Cpt. Rosa stated, even if you were approaching the limits of ABCP, but were about to ETS, the most likely course of action would be counseling and letting you ETS.
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SGT Beth Day
Sir, I do take issue with part of your comment. The standard for a long time HAS been body fat, but not always. When I joined, back in the late 70s, women ONLY had the weight standard. Body fat came in a year or so after I joined. The reason I know? I was about 25 pounds over when I tried to enlist. I was an intercollegiate swimmer and benched about 175 pounds. According to my university, I had a very low body fat percentage (I was in a special experimental monitoring program for female athletes -- it paid LOL). I did get it off, but I lost so much muscle mass in the process, I was never able to attain that level of fitness again ... sadly.
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CPT Lawrence Cable
SGT Beth Day - Before 1977, the "Standard" was a sliding scale based on the "Needs of the Service" for people. As an example, if you were drafted in 1966 and exceeded the recommended weight, you were still inducted. Think Gardner in Platoon or Gomer Pyle in Full Metal Jacket. After 1977 and the end of the Vietnam War, the first version of the program used today was instituted, women's standards updated in 1978.
Late 70's was one of those drawdown periods and a lot of things were not exactly fair.
And I feel your pain about the BMI. I started weight training in 1990, picked up about 20-25 lbs of muscle mass, and taped the rest of my time in service. The aggravating thing about taping was that I was still scoring 290+ on the APFT on the 19 year old scale at age 35. I've always thought there should be an exemption if you scored above 270.
https://academic.oup.com/milmed/article/162/8/564/4831729
Late 70's was one of those drawdown periods and a lot of things were not exactly fair.
And I feel your pain about the BMI. I started weight training in 1990, picked up about 20-25 lbs of muscle mass, and taped the rest of my time in service. The aggravating thing about taping was that I was still scoring 290+ on the APFT on the 19 year old scale at age 35. I've always thought there should be an exemption if you scored above 270.
https://academic.oup.com/milmed/article/162/8/564/4831729
History of the Army Weight Standards
Abstract. Medical officers in the U.S. Army are tasked with screening, evaluating, and processing soldiers in accordance with AR 600-9, the Army's height and we
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SGT Beth Day
CPT Lawrence Cable interesting article, but not quite what was in practice. In 1978, body fat (at least where I entered) was not an option for enlistment. It was, however, an option at my PP duty station.
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It depends on the details. Did you fail the BCT? Were you already on the radar in regards to Body Fat and failing a previous ht/wt? It's possible but like I said it depends on all of the details.
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No they can’t. What the 1SG and Co should do is counsel the NCO for being uniformed, this is something he should know. If he did then they should educate him regarding threats to a Soldier. At this point just continue to turn the tied as fitness will be good for you knee a lifetime.
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Don't know why stupid people are in charge of anything. Understandably, all "leaders" read from the same manual. They're all taught at the same schools and are supposed to uphold the same standards across the board... but, no.
If you're getting out and have papers, tell the supposed NCO to go she m screw themselves
If you're getting out and have papers, tell the supposed NCO to go she m screw themselves
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