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I'm curious as to whether officers can be demoted like enlisted can as officers are promoted via congress so I'm wondering if demotions would be the same. Just wondering because I know if a junior enlisted gets an Article 15, a lot of times they loose rank. I've never heard of this for an officer unless they are convicted by court martial. PFC (Join to see) SFC Joe S. Davis Jr., MSM, DSL SFC James J. Palmer IV aka "JP4" LTC Stephen F. CPL Dave Hoover SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth SSG (Join to see) Capt Dwayne Conyers CPT Jack Durish MSG (Join to see)
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 28
If it happens... it's very rare. I would also assume you'd be less likely to see it these days than earlier times perhaps. My grandfather somehow remained a second lieutenant despite regular re-assignment to new aircraft and more dangerous missions. I suspect it was because he was a pilot before the War, had no college degree, and reputedly liked to get into fights in town. My guess is that he was a "good stick" and they were short of people... or he'd have been cashiered.
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Yes, but it requires a formal reduction board and approval at the highest levels, I saw it once, and it was accompanied by resignation from the service
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LtCol William Bentley
This is true, but it's not a punitive reduction/demotion, it's administrative (although it may "feel" punitive...it's not, by definition). No court-martial can reduce any commissioned or warrant officer, cadet, or midshipman, as part of the sentence. There are many reasons why an officer might voluntarily accept, or be involuntarily appointed to a lower grade than held previously. But these are never "punitive" or "disciplinary" reductions, only administrative. Rule for Court-Martial 1003(c)(2)(A)(i) of Manual for Courts-Martial. Cheers,
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Under certain circumstances, a Warrant Officer may be returned to their last NCO rank. It's usually in conjunction with non selection to CW2.
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SGT Chris Padgett
This I have seen.
Our BN commo CW2 was suddenly a SFC. He vanished shortly after and I never did hear what happened.
Our BN commo CW2 was suddenly a SFC. He vanished shortly after and I never did hear what happened.
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SPC Merle Jantz
My first sergeant in Korea had a story about our supply sergeant. They went back almost 20 years and this was the third time they served together. First time, early '60s, Top was an E-5 and the SS was an E-3. Then they met up in Vietnam and Top was an E-6 and SS was a W-1, and he made Top salute him. This time, 1979, Top's an E-8 and the SS was an E-6. Top said "things have a way of working themselves out."
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LtCol William Bentley
SGT Chris Padgett - Army regs allow for the "reenlistment" of an officer who previously held Army enlisted status, and for whatever reason (there are a few) is no longer qualified to hold their commission or warrant, and have the statutory right to request reenlistment (and are still qualified to be enlisted, even if they aren't qualified to hold a commission/warrant). All such requests are Secretarial approvals. Cheers,
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LTC (Join to see)
I know several enlisted who became officers and after their mandatory removal date reverted back to either enlisted or warrant. Not so uncommon for reservists who can continue to gain retirement points that will be paid out at the higher rank scale.
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I don't know about demotions, but I am pretty sure that promotions will stop. When I was stationed in West Germany back in the 1980's there was a new 2nd LT who had been in country about two days. He decided to rent a car and tour the German countryside. He ended up about an hour from the nearest US Instantiation and got drunk, busted up a Guesthaus, and was picked up by the local polizie. Since he was assigned to the 8th Inf. Div, MP's from Bad Kreuznach were dispatched to pick him up. When the two MP's arrived (2 Spec. 4's) they were met by a Polizie officer who spoke fluent English. The mission was to escort the Lieutenant to BK and turn him over to the Div. Staff Duty Officer. He was in the holding cell, screaming things like "We Won....Twice" and speaking German like the way comics did on TV. The senior E-4 Identified himself, and informed the Lieutenant that they were giving him a ride to Div. HQ. The LT, swung around and kicked the MP in the family jewels, and was trounced upon by 5 Polizie officers. He was handcuffed and the Jr. E-4, placed the LT under arrest for disgracing the uniform. (only officers are allowed to arrest officers unless the circumstances like this arise) When the MP's got back into radio range with the MP Station and told the desk Sergeant what had transpired, there was a long pause on the radio. Sarge just said to maintain radio silence, get back to the station ASAP. Once they arrived, the Lieutenant was hustled into a holding cell, and the MP's were told to write very detailed reports. While writing the report, a Major arrived (Div. Staff Duty Officer) and questioned the two E-4's about the issue. After hearing what they had to say, and reading the reports, and the translated reports from the Polizie, and damage estimate to the Guesthaus, and the assault on the one MP, The Major stated that the MP's did just the right thing. The Lieutenant, now more sober was released to the custody of the Major. Turns out the LT was supposed to meet the Division 2 star with all the other newly arrived Officers for cocktails at the O club the next night. What DID happen was the Lieutenant was given orders to be reassigned to a weather station North of Juneau, Alaska, and to be shipped out on the next available flight out of Ramstain AFB. So he was never heard from again, I suspect that his carrier in the military was very short lived.
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LtCol William Bentley
The actual rule is that if enlisted must apprehend ("arrest" is a form of restraint imposed by a commander) an officer, they must make every effort to report that fact up their chain or to the nearest officer...generally speaking, it's customary for enlisted to not apprehend officers unless they really must (as in this case stated). Ideally, where officers are involved, another officer (of equal or senior grade) should make the apprehension...if it's truly necessary. Cheers,
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SMSgt Lawrence McCarter
LtCol William Bentley - Yes, apprehension is the correct term and usually if We took an Officer into custody our Operations Officer in the Security Police would actually come and arrest them and even place handcuffs on them. Our Operations Officer, did not hesitate to respond any time He was needed. It was a rare event for that to happen with officers but it did happen. Usually a DD Form 1569 Incident and Complaint report was submitted on the incident and some had been charged in conjunction with that Conduct unbecoming an Officer and the specific other violations and conduct under the UCMJ that merited that sited. Even if the Officer weren't apprehended that didn't mean action couldn't be taken by higher authorities in His chain of Command. On Lt. Colonel I ahd stopped that met that qualification His conduct was witnessed by the Base Commander who often would park His staff car and walk around. He thought He would observe a lot more that way and He did. He stood that Lt. Colonel at attention and right off told Him We don't want people like You in the Air Force, You are to report to My officer in 15 minutes and don't even think of being late. He also made that Colonel make an on the spot apology to Me and mad it very clear that the Security Police Represent Me and I have no intention of putting up with conduct like Yours.
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There are reduction boards, the same for more senior NCOs. But more often than not, an officer with that kind of misconduct is punished and separated from the service, so you rarely see them stay in after that kind of action.
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I can't find the specific regulation, but I do know that they can be reduced in rank. This is usually followed by some serious transgression on their part. A few years ago, there was a General Officer that was in command of AFRICOM (LTG William E. Ward). He was a 4 Star. Got popped for using his Govt CC in inappropriate ways plus a few other things. He lost one of his Stars, then was retired. I've also read about Colonels that got popped for something and was reduced/retired at their last rank where they served Honorably. Usually LTC or MAJ (depending) and are then retired or removed from the Service.
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LTC Jason Mackay
Either the SEcARMY or SECDEF makes a grade determination for retirement, in those instances they are reverted to the grade in which they last successfully served. The ADC at 82nd who was tried at Courts Martial was retired as a LTC.
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LtCol William Bentley
Commissioned and warrant officers cannot be demoted/reduced in grade as a sentence by court-martial (or other formal disciplinary event). That's Rule for Court-Martial 1003(c)(2)(A)(i):
"(2) Based on rank of accused.
(A) Commissioned or warrant officers, cadets, and midshipmen.
(i) A commissioned or warrant officer or a cadet, or midshipman may not be reduced in grade by any court-martial. However, in time of war or national emergency the Secretary concerned, or such Under Secretary or Assistant Secretary as may be designated by the Secretary concerned, may commute a sentence of dismissal to reduction to any enlisted grade."
The "commutation" of a sentence of "dismissal" to an enlisted grade is a rare thing, and is essentially the "reenlistment" of the former officer into an enlisted grade. I'm not sure it's ever been done, and I'm certain it's not been done in a long while, as the officer in question would have committed an offense serious enough to terminate their entire commission and career: dismissal being the equivalent of a dishonorable discharge. Who would want such a felon to reenlist and continue serving except in the most dire, existential threat circumstances?
Cheers,
"(2) Based on rank of accused.
(A) Commissioned or warrant officers, cadets, and midshipmen.
(i) A commissioned or warrant officer or a cadet, or midshipman may not be reduced in grade by any court-martial. However, in time of war or national emergency the Secretary concerned, or such Under Secretary or Assistant Secretary as may be designated by the Secretary concerned, may commute a sentence of dismissal to reduction to any enlisted grade."
The "commutation" of a sentence of "dismissal" to an enlisted grade is a rare thing, and is essentially the "reenlistment" of the former officer into an enlisted grade. I'm not sure it's ever been done, and I'm certain it's not been done in a long while, as the officer in question would have committed an offense serious enough to terminate their entire commission and career: dismissal being the equivalent of a dishonorable discharge. Who would want such a felon to reenlist and continue serving except in the most dire, existential threat circumstances?
Cheers,
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I am sure they can. Regardless of rank enlisted or officer, no one is exempt from UCMJ action and reduction in rank. Just depends on the severity.
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LtCol William Bentley
No commissioned or warrant officer, cadet, or midshipman, may be punitively reduced in grade as sentence by court-martial. Rule for Court-Martial 1003(c)(2)(A)(i) of Manual for Courts-Martial. Those officers may be reduced "administratively" as a result of some other process, or sometimes by voluntary acceptance of appointment to a lower grade (such as an O-2 who is selected and accepts appointment to the US Uniformed Health Sciences medical school for a free MD degree...the law requires appointment to O-1 and remain until graduated [although a different law called Saved Pay allows them to keep their higher pay], when they are appointed directly to O-3...). Etc. Cheers, WB
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SFC (Join to see)
Knew at some point someone would input some actual knowledge on the subject. We all learned something today. Appreciate itLtCol William Bentley
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I knew of three that had to take a bust in rank , they only lost one rank.
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SMSgt Lawrence McCarter
I knew of One Army Brigadier General that was made to retire and it was in the rank of Colonel. In this instance however He had held the BG rank less than two years. I don't know the circumstances and didn't ask Him even though I did know Him. I didn't figure it was essential that I know and I'm sure He had the question asked enough times already anyway. I have also though seen an Air Force 1st Lt reduced to 2nd Lt. and a Captain reduced to 1st Lt. , not very many cases I'd even seen of that but it did happen. I'd say their careers were pretty well over, neither ended up staying in.
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My input is almost 30 years old.
Before the current retirement system, some mustangs
_who had made it to SNCO, but
_were passed over twice, and
_would be separated less than two years from retirement,
could choose to revert to their prior enlisted rank; if and only if the MOS was short SNCO's.
I never heard of a punitive demotion in the modern Marine Corps for an officer, unless the act would be a felony in the civilian world. In that case the officer is busted to private and forfeiture of all pay and allowances for the term of incarceration.
If the act by the officer would not be a felony in the civilian world:
_Prior to the UCMJ. It was not uncommon for an officer to lose lineal standing, effectively changing his date of rank.
_Since the UCMJ, an non-felony act act meriting serious discipline results in forfeiture of pay and allowances, a fine, and restriction to on-base bachelor officer quarters.
_More often than not, if an officer does some something that would merit demotion for an enlisted nan, he would be separated.
Before the current retirement system, some mustangs
_who had made it to SNCO, but
_were passed over twice, and
_would be separated less than two years from retirement,
could choose to revert to their prior enlisted rank; if and only if the MOS was short SNCO's.
I never heard of a punitive demotion in the modern Marine Corps for an officer, unless the act would be a felony in the civilian world. In that case the officer is busted to private and forfeiture of all pay and allowances for the term of incarceration.
If the act by the officer would not be a felony in the civilian world:
_Prior to the UCMJ. It was not uncommon for an officer to lose lineal standing, effectively changing his date of rank.
_Since the UCMJ, an non-felony act act meriting serious discipline results in forfeiture of pay and allowances, a fine, and restriction to on-base bachelor officer quarters.
_More often than not, if an officer does some something that would merit demotion for an enlisted nan, he would be separated.
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LtCol William Bentley
It is Rule for Court Martial 1003(c)(2)(A)(i) of the Manual for Courts-Martial that prevents the demotion of any officer -- as a sentence from court-martial -- to a lower officer grade. Commissioned and warrant officers, cadets, and midshipmen are covered by this RCM.
An officer who is sentenced to confinement without dismissal would serve their confinement at their officer grade (but without command authority, sort of like a chaplain...an officer without authority). If sentenced to dismissal and confinement, and the appellate process completes to affirm the dismissal before the sentence of confinement is complete, the officer is forthwith dismissed and becomes a civilian (not a veteran, as that is denied based on the dismissal) who is subject to continued federal military jurisdiction until they complete their confinement, and may in fact be transferred to any federal (or state in some cases) prison to serve their sentence. But in fact, nearly all officers and former officers only serve sentences of confinement in one place: Fort Leavenworth.
It's also true that there is a Marine Corps Order that provides for the "reenlistment" (if the officer formerly held Marine enlisted status), or "enlistment" (if they were not prior service enlisted) of officers. Certain warrant and limited duty officers have a statutory privilege (10 USC 1165) to be reenlisted, for example as you note for 2 passes to promotion. All other officers may request "reenlistment/enlistment" as a way of continuing to serve, but a board must be convened to review and approve such requests.
This board has a very long name, "Former Active Duty and Reserve Staff Noncommissioned Officer (SNCO) and Officer Enlistment/Reenlistment Evaluation Selection Board," and for years has thus been known as the "Long Name Board." My experiences with the Long Name Board over the past 25 years is that relatively few former officers, and senior SNCO's, who go before that Board are approved for "reenlistment/enlistment." But one can always try...disapproval is guaranteed if one does not apply at all.
See Enclosure (2) of MCO 1130.80B: https://www.marines.mil/portals/1/Publications/MCO%201130.80B.pdf?ver=2016-12-06-141011-383.
Semper fi,
An officer who is sentenced to confinement without dismissal would serve their confinement at their officer grade (but without command authority, sort of like a chaplain...an officer without authority). If sentenced to dismissal and confinement, and the appellate process completes to affirm the dismissal before the sentence of confinement is complete, the officer is forthwith dismissed and becomes a civilian (not a veteran, as that is denied based on the dismissal) who is subject to continued federal military jurisdiction until they complete their confinement, and may in fact be transferred to any federal (or state in some cases) prison to serve their sentence. But in fact, nearly all officers and former officers only serve sentences of confinement in one place: Fort Leavenworth.
It's also true that there is a Marine Corps Order that provides for the "reenlistment" (if the officer formerly held Marine enlisted status), or "enlistment" (if they were not prior service enlisted) of officers. Certain warrant and limited duty officers have a statutory privilege (10 USC 1165) to be reenlisted, for example as you note for 2 passes to promotion. All other officers may request "reenlistment/enlistment" as a way of continuing to serve, but a board must be convened to review and approve such requests.
This board has a very long name, "Former Active Duty and Reserve Staff Noncommissioned Officer (SNCO) and Officer Enlistment/Reenlistment Evaluation Selection Board," and for years has thus been known as the "Long Name Board." My experiences with the Long Name Board over the past 25 years is that relatively few former officers, and senior SNCO's, who go before that Board are approved for "reenlistment/enlistment." But one can always try...disapproval is guaranteed if one does not apply at all.
See Enclosure (2) of MCO 1130.80B: https://www.marines.mil/portals/1/Publications/MCO%201130.80B.pdf?ver=2016-12-06-141011-383.
Semper fi,
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Can be done? Yes. Make sense? No, unless we're in an all out war. If you do something bad enough to warrant that type of butt waxing, you'll never get promoted and are just a loose wrench in the gears. I've been around several who resigned in lieu of something worse happening. It can play out differently if we felt someone at year 18 shouldn't lose the retirement as well. Those got a "creative assignment" to serve their penance. So what gets you hammered? Oh, night putting a female contractor on work you administer. Putting a uniform on and protest the Representatives office on the 6 o'clock news. Lots of punitive actions over the Tailhook Scandal. Those scandals are so bad, some got over punished, some got punished correctly, etc. Some got punished for not having anything to do with it. Hell, my about as far away from an aviator as I can get promotion was held up because I was required to prove the negative about being at least 200 miles outside of Reno. "You had two days of leave during this timeframe. Prove you didn't get on a plane, fly to Reno, and assault a service woman. Can't? Sign and swear under perjury this affidavit. Now prove you're not lying. Can't? Here's another affidavit." Wound up getting wound around that axle three times.
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