Posted on Dec 10, 2017
CPT Gurinder (Gene) Rana
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Fighting against his poor and negligent leadership, on each and every step of his assignment, in almost a decade and a half of active service, an officer was errantly discharged to cover-up the mistakes of his leadership, clear thru to GOs. Fighting the system; this officer was diagnosed with PTSD. Was this diagnosis another cover-up or can PTSD develop in peacetime?
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SGM Erik Marquez
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The problem many have with stories like this, is they understand the shear number of disinterested parties that have nothing to gain and every thing to loose in such a purported wide spread collusion, it seems impossible to see it as real..Add to that, most times, like here we have but one side of the story, and third party told at that.
So is such a story possible? Yes, as anything is possible, its just most things are unlikely.

Are some susceptible to Post traumatic Stress disorder from non combat trauma? Yes
Has a person, or group gone to great lengths to cover up or discredit someone? Absolutely, and it almost always comes crashing down, because of my very first point. " shear number of disinterested parties that have nothing to gain and every thing to loose in such a purported wide spread collusion"
Eventually, the lie comes apart when someone, just one is no longer willing to further the lie, not even to ignore it.
There is no such thing as a secret..Only a truth that has not yet been told. The only perfect secret is when it is known only to one, and that one person dies having never told, written, emailed, phone called another.

Do people who jump behind a single, third party story often find them selfs later wishing they had not, when "The Rest Of The Story" comes out? Yes, all too often.

With the current administration there is no better time to have your comrade (what an interesting choice of terms) to come forward and seek justice. If it is as you say "the evidence proves that all the information provided by the service was totally false and that the service had eliminated my comrade to cover-up the mistakes within."
It should be a slam dunk case, the media will eat it up, a public trial will no doubt agree totally with your comrades evidence that proves that all the information provided by the service was totally false and that the service had eliminated my comrade to cover-up the mistakes. That is after what happens when there is such evidence.
Being vindicated will likely go a long way in your comrades recovery,,or at least certainly cant hurt I would think.. If it is the false allegations that caused the PTSD, having those allegations proven false by the "totally false" information your comrade now has evidence of...
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SGM Erik Marquez
SGM Erik Marquez
3 y
SFC(P) (Join to see) - "How do you justify the unit spending the money and time to train a Medically Non Deployable (MND) Soldier"
You misunderstand the comment.. Justify, as in provide a regulation cite that supports (justifies) Medically Non Deployable Service members should continue to participate in Annual Training, or field IDTs.

As for "2. What kind of SGM puts the burden of proof on a whistleblower, instead of looking up the information and SUPPORTING the fight, themselves?"
The kind that has been down this road many times and 99% of the time found the SM making the complaint is not founded in their complaint for many reasons, mostly driven by their own personal bias and second, because it is the responsibility of the person making a statement and a discussion to provide the support (info, documentation, ect) IOW justify the points made in their statement.

So, please provide the REG and a cite from that reg that supports your position. That is what I asked.
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SFC(P) Chief Public Affairs NCO
SFC(P) (Join to see)
3 y
SGM Erik Marquez "Train" is a broad word, and commanders have a responsibility to see their Soldiers in general, but including MND's, are tasked IAW at least the following Army regulations..
AR 40-501 paras 5-14b.,d.,f.; 7-3e(2), (3); 7-12a.
AR 600-20 paras 1-5c.(4)(c); (d)4; d.

That was about all I could find in the time I allotted. Now that regs back me up, does that mean I can count on your support? Or is this the part where you let me know you knew all along, and this was for my benefit?

I have concerns in your treatment of Soldiers if you've done or allowed to be done, the "bullying" (AR 600-20 para 4-19) behaviors I described being done to me by now two separate commands, none of which adhere to the Army Values.

Most Soldiers won't know or possibly haven't been trained, to find the correct regulations to describe the 'wrongs' they may be suffering, and as senior leaders, it's our duty to listen to Soldiers, and with our breadth of experience, determine what actions are necessary to help, train, or otherwise guide Soldiers, in general.

My fight was never to get out of duty, I was forced to fight to be allowed to perform my duty, even when and after, my MND status in no way prevented any aspect of my service. Any Soldier anywhere, should see the 'wrong' in that.. and you demand proof.. Consider that for a moment.

MG Haskins, abused his authority and my battalion commander used the unlawful order, to stop my career progression where I'd already accepted an offered E-8 position, and was later demoted.. The levels of 'wrong' objectively viewed, by any ethical commander, would've been corrected. In this case, the incoming commander rescinded the unlawful order, and still allows the 'wrong' to continue, and so far, hasn't provided me the means to take my complaint further up the chain for investigation and set aside of an Article 15 that never should've happened.

That's all a small piece of what they got up to later, but making false statements to DoD CAF is one that'll take the matter out of their corrupt Chains of Command.. eventually.
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SGM Erik Marquez
SGM Erik Marquez
3 y
SFC(P) (Join to see) - "Now that regs back me up,"
Do they? you cited nothing that states MND will be included in AT or excluded.
Further Id wonder the further categorization of non-deployable for a sub-group that should not attend training would be a likely thing?
I spent 28 years in the active-duty Army, I have little experience in general of NG regulations, policies, ect. So I do not have a definitive answer, I was hoping you had done your due diligence and had a regulation cite that supported your position. Something like "SM who are medically nondeployable but not yet determined if separation is imminent or likely shall be required to attend all scheduled training" or "Commanders shall determine if SM in MND status will attend unit training"
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SFC(P) Chief Public Affairs NCO
SFC(P) (Join to see)
3 y
SGM Erik Marquez -
If you want a 'definitive answer', you'd need to actually read the cited regs. I did the leg work for you.
"Applicability" of cited regs is AD as well.
I'll break it down.. If you're in an 'active' status, you're expected to perform duty unless legitimately precluded for some reason, MND's are based on a Dr's direction and a treatment plan is derived from the prognosis.. Contractually, you're going to be tasked and perform some duty as prescribed by the commander. If a Soldier is 'broken', there's regs to cover courses of action to get them RTD within specific amounts of time, if it takes more than a year, they're med-boarded out.
A commander issuing a blanket denial without medical reason, violates the regs and completely reverses the entire concept of both the commanders duty, and the contractual duty of Soldiers in general.. Further, by denying those AD opportunities the commander also deprives Soldiers access to medical treatment they may be entitled to. There's a reason the incoming commander 'fixed' it.. That recognition of the unlawful nature of that order, would drive an ethical commander to correct the 'wrongs' that were causally linked to it..

Except in the CA Army National Guard.
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SFC (Other / Not listed)
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Yes, PTSD is well documented outside of combat situations. It is also well documented as a non-permanent disorder.
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AN Eric Lewis
AN Eric Lewis
>1 y
SFC (Join to see) - Please cite your, "modern science disagrees," sources. I'm betting there are just as many sources who disagree with your sources. It is a very controversial issue. I asked some psychologists about it and they said it is one of the most contested issues in modern psychology.
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AN Eric Lewis
AN Eric Lewis
>1 y
SFC (Join to see) - Resorting to bullying or degrading tactics in a conversation doesn't prove your point to be right. In this case, it actually brings doubt to the premise you are supporting by making you appear less intelligent, though we know from your previous statements that you are not. I bring you this free bit of advice from a social media communications class I used to teach to my peers. No one appreciates the bullying comments.
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AN Eric Lewis
AN Eric Lewis
>1 y
SPC Edwin Savoy - God bless you, too, Mr. Savoy. If it wasn't for Jesus, I wouldn't be here now and, as you so well put it, we're all just waiting on our final orders. :-)
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SP5 Michael Cates
SP5 Michael Cates
>1 y
I second Lewis!
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CW5 Ivan Murdock
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PTSD is overdiagnosed - just like ADD ADHD we have allowed our medical field to look at the causes and fail to teach coping mechanisms, look at the current events another young shooter filled with drugs. It is a culture of big pharma in the name of helping us giving these drugs and a culture of acceptance. We have to make sure that you fill the narrative that everyone has PTSD, now it is almost a stigma for our returning soldiers. I served 35 years and saw lots of combat. With that lots of things that just part of the job. I currently am a full-time student getting another Grad degree, I talk to young soldiers all the time on campus, they are in school telling me about their rating and their benefits. I almost always have to ask what caused it, but it does lose some of its shine when I hear "we had a mortarman who had a tube blow up, so every time I fired a mortar I kept waiting for it to blow up" He now is receiving PTSD as a disability. He never saw it, and it never happened to him. There is a point where it would be a temporary issue, but we damage these young men and women by crippling them for a lifetime. There are real cases and they should be given EVERY treatment available but they are clouded by the large numbers of those who have learned the system and have a financial reason to simply never get better. Maybe temporary adjustments and re-evaluations would be part of a system to help our veterans, again care vs. a check. Combat isn't necessary at all, 1st responders, hospital workers, and many others are subjected to trauma. But we can cripple our soldiers by letting this be used for a lifetime. The care is available for a lifetime, but if they would take away the disability rating for most cases after an adjustment period they would empower these young heroes more often than not. I will share, that I do know what PTSD is, my father was a WW2 POW and I saw a man at almost 70 years old that you still couldn't touch when he was asleep, he masked it with booze for a decade and 2 divorces. When he finally met my mom and time had passed he was able to live the rest of his life normally. I never saw the effects but his ability to tell the stories and recover was inspiring. Personally, I had a daughter killed in a car accident, I was at the scene that night and identified her and my daughter in law. I see her in my mind almost every day in the back of the ambulance but we have to learn to cope. I was offered things to help (drugs) and I chose running and cycling to get myself where I could sleep. We need to engage and help our young soldiers, but we need to be honest too, we have allowed our political correctness in our society stop us from a little tough love. I liked to use the "Buck" example from the Band of Brothers mini-series. After diagnosed with combat fatigue he was treated and sent back, he returned after WW2 to prosecute the Robert Kennedy murderer and served on the California Court of Appeals as a judge.
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CW5 Ivan Murdock
CW5 Ivan Murdock
4 y
CPT Lawrence Cable - They don't wait anymore, or during the height of OIF/OEF - I deployed dozens of times and conducted combat missions hours before getting on a plane to return home more than once.
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CPT Lawrence Cable
CPT Lawrence Cable
4 y
CW5 Ivan Murdock - They haven't since Vietnam. There is more than a little evidence that the time to "decompress" before entering back into the civilian world was a big part of reducing the effects of PTSD. I know that the Marine were trying a program that brought a unit back and segregated them for some time period before releasing them back to the civilian world. Haven't seen any real critique of that program and I don't know if they still follow it.
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SFC Robert Wheeler
SFC Robert Wheeler
4 y
CW5 Ivan Murdock - Obviously you have read the DSM V. You should know this stuff. You came off in your initial post with a real attitude against some PTSD survivors. Hence my reference to your channeling Patton. As for the x/y exercise, it is straight peer accepted and practiced doctrine. What would I know, I was only a Behavioral Science NCO for twenty years. Hooah?
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CW5 Ivan Murdock
CW5 Ivan Murdock
4 y
Your time doesn't equate to a resume - Your reference to Patton, again wasn't a compliment and I doubt you know the context of the event or him outside a 2-minute youtube video. I always love the smarter than someone's opinion - key phrases like, "you should know this stuff", "what would I know". So you have been in combat? - As the Behavioral science NCO, you treated patients? My comments aren't about anyone with PTSD - my comments are about the over-diagnosis because we throw money at it we begin to have people who never had a trauma make the claims. Not sure why you want to reengage.
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Can Post Traumatic Stress Disorder ("PTSD") develop in non-combat situations? Can fighting against actions of fraud, waste and abuse?
Maj Marty Hogan
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Combat is not the only PTSD culprit. People that have grown up in dysfunctional and violent homes, those survivors of a terrible attack, etc. Everyone has different triggers.
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Maj Marty Hogan
Maj Marty Hogan
>1 y
If there was a disability tied to it I would say yes. Anything to get out of doing stuff. On the serious side I am not sure it would be classified as PTSD. Rather occupational turnout in my opinion CPT Gurinder (Gene) Rana
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CSM Charles Hayden
CSM Charles Hayden
>1 y
Maj Marty Hogan I do not understand your, ‘occupational turn-out’.

Does that equate to time served in a ‘Toxic Organization’?

I was in one of those Toxic places and suffer nightmares 29 years later!
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Maj Marty Hogan
Maj Marty Hogan
>1 y
CSM Charles Hayden should have said burnout. I think every negative situation has something tied to it and if you are in it long enough it can wear on you. PTSD or burnout?
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CSM Charles Hayden
CSM Charles Hayden
4 y
Toxic leadership causes toxic organizations. Toxic organizations can cause lasting ill will.
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CPT Lawrence Cable
10
10
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I don't know about the in the situation mentioned, but PTSD is not uncommon among Rescue Workers and LEO's that have to deal with "Critical Incidents". Most departments/agencies have programs for "debriefing" those individuals with trained professional counselors. Supposedly kids growing up in areas with lots of gang violence can display the symptoms too. I don't see why not, if you see a bunch of death, I don't see why Chicago would be different from Baghdad.
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CPT Lawrence Cable
CPT Lawrence Cable
>1 y
AA Joseph Moody - It's not uncommon for EMT's to quit after having to deal with a particularly graphic incidents. A friend of mine had made it to Paramedic status and hit about a 30 day stretch where he had to deal with several multiple fatality accidents, all that involved children. Started having nightmares and quit the services completely. He was the most prominent case that I have personally seen coming out of the Rescue world.
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CPT Gurinder (Gene) Rana
CPT Gurinder (Gene) Rana
>1 y
A Captain was liked by all and he was recognized by his COC, till one dark day prior to 9/11 in 2001. A new Major turned the Captain's life upside down. Behind closed doors, this Major threatened the Captain, saying "If you don't resign your commission in my Army, I will ensure you face my wrath". This Major also expressed, "You, Captain, don't belong in my Army". The Captain was in shock. The Major tried taking advantage of the moment by ordering the Captain to sign forms without allowing him legal counsel; alike to signing one's own death warrant. The Captain refused to sign pending legal counsel, after which the Major ordered the Captain to a MHE, in reprisal. Then; the Captain escalated the matter to the Service IG and the case was filed under provisions of Section 1034 of Title 10 of the U.S. Codes, DODD 7050.6. Thereafter; the case was clossed arbitrarily and the IG file was compromised to the Major, who, in his fumed state, recommended the Captain for another MHE, in reprisal. This recommendation was rejected, which made matters worse. Five months later, under emergency conditions, the Captain was imprisoned without allowing him due process for eight days, under the pretext of a MHE. This EMHE took place following a slew of lies that were reported against the Captain by the Major. Eventually; the Captain was boarded and although none of the charges for which the Captain was boarded were evidenced or corroborated, the Board found against the Captain in the verbatim hearing that lacked verbatim tapes. After the Captain was discharged, he was boarded once again on the exact same charges and discharged from service. This Veteran developed PTSD that shows no signs of improvement.
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SPC Robin Price-Dirks
SPC Robin Price-Dirks
6 y
Sounds familiar to me I was told by a senior married Sargent that if I didn't do a "horizontal favor" he would "tank" my career. I was on career status and suddenly I was article 15ed, accused of assaulting a combat infantry Col., and put on the fat boy program. My next assignment was cancelled and I was out after 6 1/2 years and barred from reenlisting, all because I have moral character and refused his advances. He was the last in a long line of total perverts I worked under. Sorry I forgot the Capt that came to my door a week after I finished out processing and asked me for a date after he helped this pervert Sargent write me up. Nah I don't have PTSD and I really am cured. That's why I stay at home alone and have no friends, and trust issues.
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SGT Linda Moss
SGT Linda Moss
6 y
AA Joseph Moody - in some ways it can be even harder of dispatcher. We go from one call to the next with out a break between. I may have just handed a dead child call then answer the next call and get cussed out because we have not go there yet.... over a barking dog call.. A lot of people and place do not recognize that we also get PTSD. .. Hell I am still trying to admit my own self.. and I am the one with it
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SGM Bill Frazer
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Anyone who sees/survives a traumatic incident can get PTSD- just as firemen, police, and any other 1st responder. Tho it does sound fishy to me.
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CPT Gurinder (Gene) Rana
CPT Gurinder (Gene) Rana
6 y
Well now, SGM; I believe that is a matter of personal opinion. Some people are able to live thru a traumatic experience and suffer a bit of PTSD. Then; a great experience helps them forget their trauma or leave it behind. However; this doesn't mean that the effects of PTSD are not alive in their subconscious. Another traumatic experience of equal or more in magni
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CPT Gurinder (Gene) Rana
CPT Gurinder (Gene) Rana
6 y
magnitude can cause a live-long affect on the brain, perhaps even a syndrome.

Some people have a tough time getting over unexpected traumatic stress caused by external factors. The imagination can't fathom such an occurrence and introspective assessment leads to inexplicable results that is impossible to stomach. When that rotten onion is peeled petal by petal down to the core and the evidence proves that the traumatic incident was based on fake news and the charge against the affected was fake, it is too late to appeal the against such fraud, because of the six-year rule. These people are forced to live with the pain and agony of such unexpected man-made attacks. The stress continues as long as justice isn't served.

Kindly read my two manuscripts: Rise to Fame & Leadership of Shame. Do you think CPT Arvind Johar isn't suffering from PTSS today?
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SGT Unit Supply Specialist
SGT (Join to see)
4 y
You are a SGM and it sounds fishy to you? Out of curiosity, do you have any medical training? I was a paramedic before I joined the Army and I saw far worse things during my time as a civilian medic than I did during my combat depoyments. I personally don't have PTSD, but I know many former colleagues from both emergency medical services and the military who do. I am also finishing my bachelor's degree and about to start applying at medical schools. I have taken numerous psychology courses. PTSD is real and anyone who doubts it lacks empathy and shouldn't be in a leadership role. I certainly hope you have been retired for quite some time and aren't leading Soldiers who are serving during today's high OPTEMPO.
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SGM Bill Frazer
SGM Bill Frazer
4 y
SGT (Join to see) 4conflicts, lost 14 folks,wounded, all as an 11B. My comment was not derogatory agreed it could be, but smelled. YOU come talk shit to me, when1 on your kids bleeds out in your arms from friendly fire as tge medic works on him,or tell a family that Dad died with Mom 6 month pregnant. Try to not cry at the funeral when toddlers ask grieving wife, when Daddy will get out of box and play!. Till you experience 1st hand you can keep your damn Educated comments to youself
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CAPT Kevin B.
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Seen it with a family member who was an insurance claims adjuster. He mostly worked settlements. When the company decided nobody could trust nobody, they changed all the work rules and essentially managed by ambush. Seven years and a mental breakdown later, yup, he's damaged goods. The triggers are different than many MILs, but they exist. One thing common in all this is extreme mental terror. Don't know about your particular story because there's a bunch of gaps. PTSD is not wholly owned by the MIL side.
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CPT Gurinder (Gene) Rana
CPT Gurinder (Gene) Rana
>1 y
Thanks Kevin; this is exactly what I needed to know. My comrade was terrorized by his chain of command, from September 2001 till 2005. The service IG never investigated his case, yet managed to prepare a Final Report without corroboration of the evidence.

Over a decade later; the evidence proves that all the information provided by the service was totally false and that the service had eliminated my comrade to cover-up the mistakes within. The memory is still vivid and mentally taxing for my comrade, who lives with the flashbacks of his ordeal daily.

Do read my next published work, in a few weeks, called "Leadership of Shame".
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CAPT Kevin B.
CAPT Kevin B.
>1 y
I had my long tour in Hell with a 5 martini at lunch narcissist boss. But that didn't compare to the dragon I picked up in Cambodia. Took 14 years to build a decent cage for that beast. Needed help, so make sure your shipmate doesn't go it alone. If the team isn't working it every day, your buddy isn't healing properly. Better to have scars vs. festering wounds.
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SPC Kari Grove Wright
SPC Kari Grove Wright
6 y
I wont give details, but i can confirm yes. I ask why do people only think its an infantryman thing? Why is it if you are a female, it was a sexual assault? PTSD is caused when your life is threatened or feels threatened. It changes the brain physically. There are treatments, cures... no. Can it reduce the negative response to triggers, yes. Make it go away, no. Why couldn't a person have PTSD that didnt go to combat? People make stupid comments about PTSD, that is belittling to others. You don't know that person's story to the full extent. Who are you to make a judgment call on a diagnoses they were given?
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SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth
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Yes sir I believe PTSD can develop in individuals in non-combat situations, childhood traumatic experiences can trigger it.
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CPT Gurinder (Gene) Rana
CPT Gurinder (Gene) Rana
>1 y
You do believe toxic leadership can cause PTSD SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth ?
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SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth
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CPT Gurinder (Gene) Rana
CPT Gurinder (Gene) Rana
>1 y
Not sure about it SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth ? Let's engage, so I can gain your vote.
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SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth
SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth
>1 y
CPT Gurinder (Gene) Rana - some of the leadership I was around was great, but a few I met when at other areas were borderline Hitlers.
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CPT Gurinder (Gene) Rana
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5
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Much appreciated all that contributed to my post "PTSD - the cause of a toxic leadership", which has given me new wings to explore a fresh manuscript titled "Toxic Leaders are cause and become catalyst for PTSD outside combat". I hope my manuscript is worthy of your attention and appreciation. Thanks. PFC Cody "Delta" Dunn,SGM Erik Marquez AN Eric Lewis,1stSgt Ed White,CH (CPT) James L. Machado Workman,Col (Join to see),Maj Marty Hogan,LtCol Charlie Brown,Lt Col Lee Colburn,SGM Erik Marquez,Maj Kevin "Mac" McLaughlin,PO1 William "Chip" Nagel,SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth,COL Mikel J. Burroughs,CW5 Ivan Murdock. All others I missed; please know your thoughts and participation are accounted for and will be incorporated in my manuscript too. Thanks to all alike!!!
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MAJ Ken Landgren
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I firmly believe constant stress over a long period of time, or a sudden intense stressor can cause PTSD.
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CPT Gurinder (Gene) Rana
CPT Gurinder (Gene) Rana
6 y
I tend to agree with your belief MAJ Ken Landgren, Sir; however, can exposure to a toxic leadership over a long period of time (2 -- 3 years) lead to PTSD?
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MAJ Ken Landgren
MAJ Ken Landgren
6 y
CPT Gurinder (Gene) Rana - I firmly believe that it can induce PTSD. The officer feared the toxic work environment, his career, and his ability to take care of his family. His basic constitution probably changed as well.
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