Posted on Aug 27, 2017
Can the Reserves force you to do online training without pay?
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The Army Reserve Medics used to do re certifying training in uniform paid, for a week or two. Now its online through SWANK health online where we have to meet a minimum of hours to re qualify as Medics. I have been informed that this time/classes will be unpaid despite being mandatory. How can the Army force me to spend my personal time doing something unpaid?
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 26
Suspended Profile
The book answer is no.
...however. For some perspective. On Battle Assembly days, you are owned by your Commander for 24 hours. The alternative is for soldiers to come to Drill...as early as is needed...and leave as late as is needed to meet these hours, if you -really- want to make this a problem.
You are paid a very good amount of money to do ultimately very little at Drill. We both know it, you could be there a lot longer-- and it does happen to other Reservists. So would you rather do this on your couch drinking a beer, or stay in uniform at the drill hall and do them on Army computers that are ten times slower?
...however. For some perspective. On Battle Assembly days, you are owned by your Commander for 24 hours. The alternative is for soldiers to come to Drill...as early as is needed...and leave as late as is needed to meet these hours, if you -really- want to make this a problem.
You are paid a very good amount of money to do ultimately very little at Drill. We both know it, you could be there a lot longer-- and it does happen to other Reservists. So would you rather do this on your couch drinking a beer, or stay in uniform at the drill hall and do them on Army computers that are ten times slower?
Its interesting... I hear this question from a Soldier (in some variation) every couple of years. There are certain things that are expected of you when you are a Soldier (even a reservist). One of those things involves occasionally taking care of Army business outside of normal drills (this factor increases as you go up in rank). These days that can be answering an e-mail from your Commander *or* knocking out some mandatory online training. Being a Soldier--even on reserve/guard status--is not a normal job, so you cannot expect normal working hours. And certainly, unlike a normal job (or the Regular Army), the reserves and guard have to figure out how to do things within the confines of one monthly drill and one annual training. As for the pay, when you are on drill status you are getting paid 24/7, and I guarantee you are not working that entire time.
While its true you technically do not belong to the unit when not drilling, it does not mean you are not a Soldier, and if we were to limit what military tasks we do to just drill weekends, our drills would become much more problematic (and would likely fail to accomplish many other tasks).
While its true you technically do not belong to the unit when not drilling, it does not mean you are not a Soldier, and if we were to limit what military tasks we do to just drill weekends, our drills would become much more problematic (and would likely fail to accomplish many other tasks).
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MSG John Wirts Precisely what I came here to say. Also, if there was an enlistment/re-enlistmen bonus tied to the Soldier maintaining 68W, they can see that recouped.
So, no the unit can't "make" you, but there are always choices and consequences.
So, no the unit can't "make" you, but there are always choices and consequences.
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MSG John Wirts
But despite all the reserves have always been the bastard step-child. We get a part time job with some advantages, continuation of military career, the actives are quick to point out we get 15 membership points per year just for belonging to a unit. We get 1 point for each 4 hour uta(the active calls this double credit) , we get correspondence course points for any correspondence courses we take. These are inactive duty points and limited to 60 points per year. Let's look closer 15 membership points, 48 IDT points, stop before we even consider man day spaces, or correspondence course points we now have 63 points we lose three points per year before we even start those. So once we get our 20 years we have lost 60 points without even having completed a correspondence course, or gotten a man day space. Now when we get to twenty years and get our letter we have to wait until we're 60 to get our retirement computed and get paid for the real time we spent in the reserves. Our retirement is justifiably less then active duty based on actual time served. But that is the reduced retirement, why do the reserves have to take a double hit and wait til we're 60 to draw our already reduced retirement?
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SSG Darrell Peters
If a Medic cannot RST to attend EMT training from a Certified State Fire School or other venue. Then yes they can use those hours for Retirement Points.
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That is what we used to do, you should aks if you can document this time and request retirement points be awarded for this time. If your not happy with this you can request to be reclassified which will probably happen anyway if you lose this MOS because of failure to maintain your required certifications.
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MSG John Wirts
Okay I can only speak to what I was taught and allowed during my time before 1993, it is a new military since then.
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CSM Thomas McGarry
MSG John Wirts - It is I wish I had a dollar for every hour I had to deal with soldier issues and do required training on my own time to include the two years of correspondence course required for the non resident SM Academy, most of which myself along withy many others didn't receive retire points for-Not complaining as iit was just part of the job!!
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MSG John Wirts
Yes it was, I listed some things about reserves that were just what it was. Some things have changed with the mothballing of the draft, and the war on terror. But some things you have to do for yourself. When I was a DAF civilian employee, I went to college on the GI Bill and my own time, this helped me get promoted, I was qualified when I was hired, but to get promoted I had to improve my qualifications, this was done on my time. So It's not just the military or the reserves that require extra effort!
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Mandatory training is the required training that a higher command requires and some times that directive comes straight from DOD. Now can we "Make" you do Online forms of training while you may have some free time sitting at home through the week? Short JAG answer is no. Now that we have that out of the way, we the leadership decide at what time you are released to get some shut eye, shower, and non micromanaged time as I hear it described. Today we are all asked to do more for less and with less time and resources. Your unit is only as successful as you are in being prepared for the fight. If you wont dedicate some non drill time to the mission success then you are a "You " person and definitely not a team player. Think less of self and more of your team. As you increase your knowledge and experience, you become eligible for promotions, schools and Hoo Ya stuff. Think about how often you may call that team leader or higher through the week, non pay status, to facilitate getting you put in for jump school, NCOES, or that unnecessary split you just have to have now. How about thinking of it like this, just do what you can to the best of your ability. If you truly put forth the effort, it will show. Prepare yourself to be able to survive the worst on any battlefield you find yourself traveling across.
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SGT (Join to see)
You could have stopped after the first part of your explanation and it would have been fine. You know top. I have a problems with your answer: amoral unethical and illegal-wise. One it is not legally guided so if you have a problem with the guidance that UCMJ guides and affords you then you are overstepping your bounds. The problem I have with team first mentality is that too many people just care about their own red marks. You are worried about the team because of YOUR responsibility. You know nothing of the reason that he has elected to rail against this. Amoral and unethical as in your statement states that you know what's right and decide to emotionally blackmail the soldier into doing something that that you have no legal standing to demand.
Two the guidance I see habitually is that you are responsible for your own career and taking care of your own needs. If the army is not paying you for something you are under zero obligation to do it outside of drill weekend. Your statement that you are a you person is without merit.
Two the guidance I see habitually is that you are responsible for your own career and taking care of your own needs. If the army is not paying you for something you are under zero obligation to do it outside of drill weekend. Your statement that you are a you person is without merit.
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They cannot force you, but if it is required recertification training, failure to complete it would mean loss of qualification and removal from the unit. Depending on your obligation status, if you are still under obligation they could transfer you to IRR, or if you are past your obligation they may discharge you.
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You're not forced. Don't do it, find another MOS. I retired in 2006. When I did, I couldn't believe how much spare time I had at home because of all the Army Reserve business I did at home (not paid). I didn't start making money until I got to MSG because of all the travel and such. Read SGT Sean Goodrow's post. He explained things pretty good.
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I love the lie from the Active side that says the Guard and Reserves will pay you for the credit hours of the online training completed at home. They can't force you but find ways around it. By which I mean communicate with your Sergeant. My cyber training needed to get done but no one wanted to let me do it while on AT as they had other tasks so I sat down with one of the Sergeants and explained the situation and he set aside some time for me to do it. If I didn't do the training then I would lose computer access apparently. The Sergeant I spoke to understood the long term situation of that, so it's easier to give me an hour of time to do it then not be able to do anything come next drill because I don't have access.
So just speak with your Sergeant and explain the situation. A good Sergeant I have found is good at shifting things around and getting the mission done anyway.
So just speak with your Sergeant and explain the situation. A good Sergeant I have found is good at shifting things around and getting the mission done anyway.
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Suspended Profile
Well, they -can-. If the unit has the funds, you can be paid for training at home. SSD, required correspondence courses...it can be done.
Not all units have the funding though. Probably the most important lesson in the military, no two units or Commanders are the same, and they dictate quite a bit.
Not all units have the funding though. Probably the most important lesson in the military, no two units or Commanders are the same, and they dictate quite a bit.
1SG (Join to see)
Yes it can be done, but those funds utilized could be saved if a young soldier would take a little self discipline and do some of it at home. We all have done distance learning from home. Not one I know, is requiring Soldiers to do everything at home. In the wake of the battles being fought abroad, DOD has realized that the Reserve Component and the National Guard is a formidable fighting force and more is being pushed onto the plates of those units.
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Essentially you can submit a 1380 and try to get it paid or at least get retirement points for the hours put in.... but it's going to depend on your leadership if they allow that
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MSG John Wirts
Sergeant membership points, IDT points, correspondence course points are limited to 60 points per year, membership points 15 for belonging to a unit. IDT points 48 per year, you just reached 63 points you lose 3 points per year with just unit participation. If you get ATA, man day spaces, or correspondence course points those are not counted for retirement.
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Just so you are aware, the NREMT (National Registry) says you have to have a certain amount of hours to satisfy the continuing education requirements. On the website itself, it mentions that the SM is solely responsible for maintaining their hours towards their ceus. I would not mess around with training as I've seen people lose their emt qualifications and they were not afforded the chance to recertify or even reclass. Make your choice wisely! Hope you find what you are looking for.
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I can only deal with the frustration through humor, because you are exactly correct Sir.
...however. For some perspective. On Battle Assembly days, you are owned by your Commander for 24 hours."
Times 4 paid days in a drill weekend yes?
So the CDR owns you for 96 hours... of that Id bet there are only about 20~24 hours total over the 4 days that have scheduled training. Lest say 24.. So you have a choice, be in duty uniform at the armory the other 72 hours doing your on line training getting "paid" or be at home in those "non scheduled training hours" getting paid, but give up some "off time" to do the on line training.
The more I hang out at RP, the more I understand why AD folks that retire from AD after 25 plus years are not allowed to join the Reserves.