4
4
0
I absolutely despise this term and tend to lose my mind when I hear people of any rank use it. Has anyone else had to deal with it and how?
I've found that counting to ten doesn't work.
I've found that counting to ten doesn't work.
Posted in these groups: 
Toxic Leadership
Toxic Leadership
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 14
9
9
0
I absolutely HATE this phrase. Soldiers are SUPPOSED to check up. We are role models, examples of that they should aspire to. They are supposed to be looking at us, learning from us, emulating us. Quite frankly, if a "leader" is doing something that has them uttering this phrase, they likely are setting a horrible example.
This is an instant blood boiler..
(9)
(0)
SFC Michael Hasbun
That's another reason I stress writing/speech ability, grammar, attention to detail, and proper counseling with all my NCO's. Nothing gets charges thrown out faster than shoddy counseling...
(0)
(0)
I have been respectfully corrected on things by subordinates, and it really didn't bother me at all. If you take it personally, you're not being professional. The exception to this would be if the individual making the correction is being a jerk/showboat about it; then it's understandable that someone would get upset. I have also pulled aside my superior officers a few times to make small corrections in private and they appreciated it. My conclusion is that often times, people who are upset about being corrected are upset with HOW it is being made, not the actual infraction at hand.
(7)
(0)
CPT Keith Steinhurst
Hmmmm - reminds me of the time I told my boss his canons were pinned on upside down - now moot in the ACU world . . .
(0)
(0)
2
2
0
I agree and disagree with the varying responses. It is my opinion that people who use that phrase or lead under that mindset are poor leaders that feel they are above question. A good leader will understand that we are not perfect and occasionally need fixed. While I wholeheartedly agree that the deliver of the message is more important than the content.
I had once seen a soldier tell his PSG that they were doing a PRT exercise wrong. This PSG who loved to inform people he was once DS of the year and was tasked with teaching PRT to other DS's refused to accept that he was wrong and the soldier was right. To me that is a poor example of an NCO regardless of past accomplishments.
I am not one of those people that is impressed with badges, medals and medallions because they are just indications of what you did for yourself, not soldiers.
(2)
(0)
2
2
0
It all boils down to tact and respect. Any person in uniform can correct another individual regardless of rank if given the proper military courtesy afforded them. I find that senior leaders usually starting at SSG tend to think that joe/jane can t correct them due to their rank which is a negative mindset. First thing I learned when i came in was soldiers see and hear EVERYTHING and are taught that you are permitted to make a correction as long as you use tact, respect and a little common sense (dont correct a 1SG among his peers etc). This is what discourages our troops and often dont want to stay in the army because of the double standards floating around the ranks.
(2)
(0)
SPC Andrew Flowers
Generally the same message I wanted to convey. Use tact, be respectful, even if you're in the wrong it can be a learning experience as to why some things look different. I once thought that a Master Sergent had his rank upside down in the middle of the night on a small FOB south of Baghdad. Little did I know it was an Air Force E-9.
(1)
(0)
2
2
0
SFC Grudzinski
As a SPC and SGT, I had two section NCOICs (SFCs) who were always away from the office for "personal reasons." People would stop by the office and ask where they were; they would email, text and call me at all hours of the night looking for the NCOIC. I was always polite but there were many times I wanted to say "I check down, not up".
Just curious why you despise the statement?
(2)
(0)
SFC John Brooks
SSG Woods, I believe you and SFC Grudzinski are viewing the statement in different ways. On one hand the statement means "You need to be worrying about what you need to do and not what I'm doing." on the other hand, as in your case, it's taken to mean "I don't need to keep accountability of my NCO, that's his leader's responsibility."
I know my own Soldiers were put in the same scenario during my first 6 months at my current duty assignment because I had a child in the hospital and was constantly in and out of the office and on leave. My Soldiers, rather than being trusted to handle the situations, were constantly asked where I was first and it grated on them. When the issue was brought up to me by my civilian leadership I told them that my troops can handle the mission and they know how to reach me if they require guidance.
I know my own Soldiers were put in the same scenario during my first 6 months at my current duty assignment because I had a child in the hospital and was constantly in and out of the office and on leave. My Soldiers, rather than being trusted to handle the situations, were constantly asked where I was first and it grated on them. When the issue was brought up to me by my civilian leadership I told them that my troops can handle the mission and they know how to reach me if they require guidance.
(2)
(0)
SFC (Join to see)
I despise the statement because a good leader should welcome a helping hand from ANYONE. I think many have misconstrued the original post and think it was about subordinate soldiers checking on the activities of seniors.
It was about subordinates making on the spot corrections of seniors. As a senior NCO on many occasions I have a dozen things going through my head at once and occasionally over look something like a pocket flap, or have a boot lace hanging out, etc... If a junior soldier advised me of that error I would thank them and in my opinion a good leader would do the same not bark at the soldier for pointing out their faults.
As for the CSM vignette, if it were me, I would dispel any issues by first apologizing for being late, it's unprofessional, however things happen.
Many have commented that tact is essential and they are absolutely right. The problem as one commenter pointed out is ego, get over yourself.
(0)
(0)
1
1
0
I usually hear it said by someone who is ate-up and gets corrected by a lower ranking. Ego check perhaps?
(1)
(0)
1
1
0
count down from 10 SFC, not up? ;+) jk..
Seeing various posts and insight on the topic... Here are a few vigniette's Id like you to take a moment to consider...
CSM puts out BN formation time. He himself shows up late. If a SGT who is a Gunner / Team leader in one of the units steps up and asks, "CSM, why were you late to your own formation"... yeah, WAY, WAY, WAY out of line. a Section Chief / squad leader steps up and asks the same question, WAY WAY out of line. the 1SG, does the same while in formation, WAY out of line. The same 1SG goes into CSM's office and asks him the same question. Is that out of line? I would say yea, maybe, but depending on their personal/ professional relationship it may or may not be deemed as out of line. But what business is it of the 1SG as to why the CSM was or was not there on time... BN CDR asks CSM the same question, are they out of line? No.
Leader Snuffy is out of the office and subordinate Snuffy (no relation of course) are in a high vis. operation and subordinate snuffy needs to get some information from leader, is subordinate snuffy wrong to call and ask them when they would be back IOT facilitate the mission. No
Unit is deployed, leader Snuffy has their family back home waiting on them. Leader Snuffy is in their trailer down range and has a guest of the opposite sex in there and, well, they sure aren't studying for the board... Subordinate Snuffy who happens to live across the way there happens to see this ongoing situation and wants to address the leader... is that wrong? NO
The situation dictates whether or not the subordinate is right or wrong in their action and of course methods, tact, INTENTIONS, etc etc...
It is more than a cut and dry issue as to whether or not "Check down, not up" applies or is right / wrong. Usually its just a leader who is doing something immoral, unethical or illegal that doesn't want their subordinate addressing them in regards to the issue that doesn't like the statement. As with most things, Situation dictates.
Seeing various posts and insight on the topic... Here are a few vigniette's Id like you to take a moment to consider...
CSM puts out BN formation time. He himself shows up late. If a SGT who is a Gunner / Team leader in one of the units steps up and asks, "CSM, why were you late to your own formation"... yeah, WAY, WAY, WAY out of line. a Section Chief / squad leader steps up and asks the same question, WAY WAY out of line. the 1SG, does the same while in formation, WAY out of line. The same 1SG goes into CSM's office and asks him the same question. Is that out of line? I would say yea, maybe, but depending on their personal/ professional relationship it may or may not be deemed as out of line. But what business is it of the 1SG as to why the CSM was or was not there on time... BN CDR asks CSM the same question, are they out of line? No.
Leader Snuffy is out of the office and subordinate Snuffy (no relation of course) are in a high vis. operation and subordinate snuffy needs to get some information from leader, is subordinate snuffy wrong to call and ask them when they would be back IOT facilitate the mission. No
Unit is deployed, leader Snuffy has their family back home waiting on them. Leader Snuffy is in their trailer down range and has a guest of the opposite sex in there and, well, they sure aren't studying for the board... Subordinate Snuffy who happens to live across the way there happens to see this ongoing situation and wants to address the leader... is that wrong? NO
The situation dictates whether or not the subordinate is right or wrong in their action and of course methods, tact, INTENTIONS, etc etc...
It is more than a cut and dry issue as to whether or not "Check down, not up" applies or is right / wrong. Usually its just a leader who is doing something immoral, unethical or illegal that doesn't want their subordinate addressing them in regards to the issue that doesn't like the statement. As with most things, Situation dictates.
(1)
(0)
0
0
0
Not sure I am understanding this correctly but in my opinion wrong is wrong. If I witness someone doing something that is wrong and violates standards or morality I will say something. That being said timing is everything when dealing with superiors.
I do not and will refuse to live under the mantra of do what I say not as I do. Blind followership is for fools and on stunts our growth as leaders and as a force.
I do not and will refuse to live under the mantra of do what I say not as I do. Blind followership is for fools and on stunts our growth as leaders and as a force.
(0)
(0)
0
0
0
I guess it depends on how it is asked. I usually volunteer my whereabouts to my a Soldiers. Now if I was asked "Where are you going?" I may respond with "don't worry about it." Sometimes subordinates do forget who they are talking too. When I was a SFC I had a CPL working for me and I got on him for "jaw jacking" with another Soldier when he was supposed to working, he responded with "Well I haven't seen you do anything all day Sergeant" I lost my mind! I then reminded him that I don't answer to him and he doesn't manage my time. I find this to be a typical fault amount subordinates when they don't see what their bosses are doing. As has been stated many times here on RP tact goes a long way when talking to a superior...
(0)
(0)
0
0
0
I think that if you aren't able to respective corrective comments from those around you, regardless of rank, you are missing out on a huge chance to grow professionally. To have a narrow-minded point of view like that seems to be a bad move. I think everyone can benefit from listening to other's ideas. Now of course, there is a proper time and place to have a conversation and then there are times to just follow orders. But yes, I despise the term as well.
(0)
(0)
Read This Next
-
Ask questionGet expert advice and
tips for your questions. -
Post updatePost pictures, personal updates, plans, or anything you like!
Continue with Facebook 
Continue with Google