Posted on May 11, 2015
Deep frustration in the USAF, is it the same across all services?
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Leadership
US Air Force
Fitness
Retention
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 11
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The Air Force needs to adopt Lead by Example and Follow Me. The Air Force has a culture problem, and that is not a new. Be Safe LTC (Join to see)!!!
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SSgt (Join to see)
Amen, COL Charles Williams. There are DISTINCT differences between the career fields in the AF where the culture is "more green than blue" - SOF, security forces, etc. I think this is due to the fact that they implement more w/ the army than the rest of the fields, and have therefore adopted the best aspects of both cultures. This has created a very viable hybrid that one would hope the rest of the service would adopt.
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MSgt (Join to see)
I cant argue with the article at all. I have heard too many lectures by leadership about how my "warrior ethos" should be at the forefront and to remain fit to fight. With that being said, do not DARE fail a PT test because nobody should ever fail at anything they do! The one mistake AF is getting tiresome and I don't know if upper level leadership knows or even cares about it.
COL Charles Williams you are partially correct when you say the AF has a culture problem...it also has an identity problem.
COL Charles Williams you are partially correct when you say the AF has a culture problem...it also has an identity problem.
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SSgt (Join to see)
MSgt (Join to see), I like how the article also pointed out the double-standard of the "no-mistake" enlisted corps, but the "forgive & forget" officer corps.
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From my very little knowledge and experience with the Air Force I will say that organizationally it is incapable of operating as a military entity. It operates more like Southwest Airlines for lack of a better term. Don't get me wrong, I am not knocking them, well maybe a little but, I have had my ass bailed out of not so good scenarios because of the great Air Force we have so I am very respectful of what they do.
It's just really night and day when you see how Air Force personnel operate on a daily basis. The NCO Corps of the Air Force is so vastly different than the Army or Marines you can really relate to what Col Grannan is talking about. There is a very different interpretation of what leadership is, the Air Force is much more technically/functionally driven to where the Army is much more personally/hierarchal driven.
The one thing about the Army that keeps it rolling along is discipline. The standards that are required to be a member of the Army are (mostly) highly enforced. Wear and Appearance of the Uniform, customs and courtesies, chain of command. I am not saying that the Air Force is undisciplined but, for example, if you look at their Wear and Appearance regulation it almost mirrors the Army's AR 670-1. However, the attention paid adhering to it and the NCOs attention to enforcing it are vastly different between the two services.
I don't think the culture can be changed, it would be detrimental to operations. Probably one of the reasons it branched away from the Army into it's own service...it just didn't fit the Army culture. That's just how I see it from my small perspective would like to hear from the Zoomies on what they think.
CMSgt (Join to see) TSgt Joshua Copeland MSgt (Join to see)
It's just really night and day when you see how Air Force personnel operate on a daily basis. The NCO Corps of the Air Force is so vastly different than the Army or Marines you can really relate to what Col Grannan is talking about. There is a very different interpretation of what leadership is, the Air Force is much more technically/functionally driven to where the Army is much more personally/hierarchal driven.
The one thing about the Army that keeps it rolling along is discipline. The standards that are required to be a member of the Army are (mostly) highly enforced. Wear and Appearance of the Uniform, customs and courtesies, chain of command. I am not saying that the Air Force is undisciplined but, for example, if you look at their Wear and Appearance regulation it almost mirrors the Army's AR 670-1. However, the attention paid adhering to it and the NCOs attention to enforcing it are vastly different between the two services.
I don't think the culture can be changed, it would be detrimental to operations. Probably one of the reasons it branched away from the Army into it's own service...it just didn't fit the Army culture. That's just how I see it from my small perspective would like to hear from the Zoomies on what they think.
CMSgt (Join to see) TSgt Joshua Copeland MSgt (Join to see)
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TSgt (Join to see)
MSgt (Join to see) I know what you mean about feeling out of place in PME type environments. Security forces is one of those AFSCs that's more green than blue. That being said, however, the extreme push on PT is very frustrating. I may not be the most fit person in my unit, but I know I can perform circles around my peers when it comes to job knowledge and job application. I've met people during my career who were in the gym for hours everyday, but I don't know if I could trust them for a second to know how to react in situations that go south. I've seen too many fantastic NCOs have to seperate, just because they weren't PT all-stars. The whole system just reeks of someone trying to get that star on their collar...
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SrA (Join to see)
CSM (Join to see)
There's no way you can openly insult a branch, attempt to imply no offense whatsoever, when you said yourself you were knocking them, then lightly pull rank on me and remind me of tact. Let me ask you this, how would you have felt if someone was directly stating that your Army can't hack it, or that "for lack of better terms" they are the equivalent of toy soldiers? Thick skin or not, a proud person will get offended.
I in no way disrespected your rank and utilized as much tact as I received. I went straight to your opinion and made you see the unfruitfulness in the comparison. If you have a problem with my opinion, that's tough. It's my right to openly express myself and defend my branch and beliefs respectfully. This is how social sites operate. We speak freely on this social site about various issues in an informal fashion, somewhat free of those shackles. I know where the line ends regarding the upkeep of professionalism here and I haven't crossed it yet. How come you are entitled to disrespect a whole branch and I'm not entitled to respond to you defensively? Can a double standard be considered in this particular situation?
I do find it humorous that you feel that you have the privilege to make unprofessional commentary about other branches, then attempt to indirectly take jabs at my service with your "measly 28 years" comment, as if that should solidify or resolve things. I think you're trying to get me out of character...... Are you implying that because one service member has more years in the service, that makes him/her a better service member? Ultimately deeming him/her more knowledgable? The whole military can oppose to that. Again, someone come look at this. Seniority is as simplistic as it stands. A privileged position earned by reason of longer service or higher rank. In a lot of cases we have senior enlisted that just drag by and finish their time, disregarding customs and the sole reason they enlisted in the first place. I apologize for not being born in 1940. If so, I'd be able to IRONICALLY disregard tact and just spit out whatever I desire due to my highly impressive tenure, expecting no recoil at all.
If and so you feel that I'm personally attacking you, rest easy. My defenses are directed at unnecessary comments regarding our Armed Services. I'm beyond exasperated with all the branch-burning going on on this site. Anytime I see it, I'll charge right at it, no matter what rank. In most of my responses I'm even more sarcastic and, "for lack of better terms," a complete asshole to those whom merited it. This branch burning issue is a nuisance to me and one of my pet peeves, hence my argumentative stance. In my most honest opinion, I strongly felt that your initial comparison was insipid at the least.
I can admit that I somewhat went for the jugular and I will note that for future discussions while on Rallypoint. In the meantime, I will find a controversial issue on FB tonight and let loose there.
There's no way you can openly insult a branch, attempt to imply no offense whatsoever, when you said yourself you were knocking them, then lightly pull rank on me and remind me of tact. Let me ask you this, how would you have felt if someone was directly stating that your Army can't hack it, or that "for lack of better terms" they are the equivalent of toy soldiers? Thick skin or not, a proud person will get offended.
I in no way disrespected your rank and utilized as much tact as I received. I went straight to your opinion and made you see the unfruitfulness in the comparison. If you have a problem with my opinion, that's tough. It's my right to openly express myself and defend my branch and beliefs respectfully. This is how social sites operate. We speak freely on this social site about various issues in an informal fashion, somewhat free of those shackles. I know where the line ends regarding the upkeep of professionalism here and I haven't crossed it yet. How come you are entitled to disrespect a whole branch and I'm not entitled to respond to you defensively? Can a double standard be considered in this particular situation?
I do find it humorous that you feel that you have the privilege to make unprofessional commentary about other branches, then attempt to indirectly take jabs at my service with your "measly 28 years" comment, as if that should solidify or resolve things. I think you're trying to get me out of character...... Are you implying that because one service member has more years in the service, that makes him/her a better service member? Ultimately deeming him/her more knowledgable? The whole military can oppose to that. Again, someone come look at this. Seniority is as simplistic as it stands. A privileged position earned by reason of longer service or higher rank. In a lot of cases we have senior enlisted that just drag by and finish their time, disregarding customs and the sole reason they enlisted in the first place. I apologize for not being born in 1940. If so, I'd be able to IRONICALLY disregard tact and just spit out whatever I desire due to my highly impressive tenure, expecting no recoil at all.
If and so you feel that I'm personally attacking you, rest easy. My defenses are directed at unnecessary comments regarding our Armed Services. I'm beyond exasperated with all the branch-burning going on on this site. Anytime I see it, I'll charge right at it, no matter what rank. In most of my responses I'm even more sarcastic and, "for lack of better terms," a complete asshole to those whom merited it. This branch burning issue is a nuisance to me and one of my pet peeves, hence my argumentative stance. In my most honest opinion, I strongly felt that your initial comparison was insipid at the least.
I can admit that I somewhat went for the jugular and I will note that for future discussions while on Rallypoint. In the meantime, I will find a controversial issue on FB tonight and let loose there.
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SrA (Join to see)
CSM (Join to see)
I have no problem admitting my wrongs. Don't misconstrue my intent and think I'm submitting, I still dislike your commentary and arrogant stance.
I'm reasoning with the situation even after you attempted to undermine a branch, my intelligence and my service with your outstanding and stupendous 28 years of service. I can't say the same for you regarding reasoning. Not admitting a mistake is a bigger mistake, which often leaves one without much to say.
We're often looking at our shadow because we want to avoid the shame or embarrassment that comes along with admitting mistakes.
I have no problem admitting my wrongs. Don't misconstrue my intent and think I'm submitting, I still dislike your commentary and arrogant stance.
I'm reasoning with the situation even after you attempted to undermine a branch, my intelligence and my service with your outstanding and stupendous 28 years of service. I can't say the same for you regarding reasoning. Not admitting a mistake is a bigger mistake, which often leaves one without much to say.
We're often looking at our shadow because we want to avoid the shame or embarrassment that comes along with admitting mistakes.
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We are now a one mistake AF. Look at last years force shaping madness. No room for politics in war fighting.
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SSgt (Join to see)
I would go one further than that, MSgt (Join to see). It seems that the enlisted corps is a "one mistake AF", but the officer corps get a little more leeway.
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During my travels in joint areas there does seem to be many morale problems, and just as many of them seem to be tied to leadership issues. Lazy leaders, weak leaders, and even the good leaders whom are usurped in their abilities to lead by too many cumbersome meetings and responsibilities for social work rather than action.
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The Air Force's PT "program" is, for the most part a culling tool, pure and simple. The standards are known, published openly, and seldom change. Your due date is known. Is your due date during the middle of summer in an uncomfortable climate? No problem... take your test early during the time of year you prefer. The test is not difficult to pass by any stretch of the imagination unless all you do for physical activity is raise the beer to your inlet port.
The side benefit of the program- there are much fewer doughy Airmen in our ranks and the gym is busier than ever. There is a greater focus on physical fitness which has positive spins in a number of directions. Could the program stand to benefit? Could the AF PT uniform suck a lot less? Absolutely.
The article illuminates the real problem- lack of leadership. More specifically, lack of testicular fortitude when it comes to making the right call when it's not the popular thing to do. Until the AF reaches its personnel numbers goal, this sort of thing will probably persist.
If supervisors want to retain their Airmen, they should take an interest in their lives and accomplish practice tests early enough to make improvements to ensure a passing score. Every Airman interested in staying in should do this already but in a "do more with less" environment, it's easy to get overwhelmed.
The side benefit of the program- there are much fewer doughy Airmen in our ranks and the gym is busier than ever. There is a greater focus on physical fitness which has positive spins in a number of directions. Could the program stand to benefit? Could the AF PT uniform suck a lot less? Absolutely.
The article illuminates the real problem- lack of leadership. More specifically, lack of testicular fortitude when it comes to making the right call when it's not the popular thing to do. Until the AF reaches its personnel numbers goal, this sort of thing will probably persist.
If supervisors want to retain their Airmen, they should take an interest in their lives and accomplish practice tests early enough to make improvements to ensure a passing score. Every Airman interested in staying in should do this already but in a "do more with less" environment, it's easy to get overwhelmed.
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MSgt (Join to see)
I agree with what you're saying MSgt (Join to see), but that would mean supervisor X would have get airmen Y to do this on their off time, and curing ebola may be an easier task than to get this done...on a large scale at least.
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MSgt (Join to see)
Most commanders authorize "duty hours" for PT. This isn't practical in every career field but you could argue we are always on duty. I'm in a small 5-man shop and I authorize 1.5 duty hrs 3x/week for my Airmen.
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I have to say, I tend to agree with this. It is not necessarily that base commanders don't care about their Airmen, but they are mandated to be strict on the smallest of things & are so inundated w/ other tasks that they cannot be a present as they may desire to be.
However, I agree w/ COL Charles Williams when he said that the AF should adopt Lead by Example & Follow Me. Just because we spawned off of the Army does not mean that we need to spurn away everything that they use...ESPECIALLY if it is successful in developing good airmen & officers!
However, I agree w/ COL Charles Williams when he said that the AF should adopt Lead by Example & Follow Me. Just because we spawned off of the Army does not mean that we need to spurn away everything that they use...ESPECIALLY if it is successful in developing good airmen & officers!
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3 failed PT tests within a certain amount of time in the Navy will result in the Sailor being drummed out.
For the most part I DO agree with PT standards. "This person is really good at their job." Well, part of your job is to maintain PT standards. I'm sorry if this sounds mean, it's brutally honest.
But every once in a while, injuries occur and people aren't able to pass their PT test. Ideally, they should be put on light duty (profile in Army terms) until they are healed. I have seen rare cases where a person is injured but still forced to take a PFA (Physical Fitness Assessment). At least in the Navy, while one is on light duty they may not have to PT but they still have to maintain height/weight/body fat standards. I already know that certain medications will cause uncontrollable weight gain but ultimately it is still the member's responsibility to maintain standards. Work with your doctor, go on a low car/low calorie diet, use a medical weight loss program, but do something (considering it is healthy) to keep the weight off.
For the most part I DO agree with PT standards. "This person is really good at their job." Well, part of your job is to maintain PT standards. I'm sorry if this sounds mean, it's brutally honest.
But every once in a while, injuries occur and people aren't able to pass their PT test. Ideally, they should be put on light duty (profile in Army terms) until they are healed. I have seen rare cases where a person is injured but still forced to take a PFA (Physical Fitness Assessment). At least in the Navy, while one is on light duty they may not have to PT but they still have to maintain height/weight/body fat standards. I already know that certain medications will cause uncontrollable weight gain but ultimately it is still the member's responsibility to maintain standards. Work with your doctor, go on a low car/low calorie diet, use a medical weight loss program, but do something (considering it is healthy) to keep the weight off.
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SSgt (Join to see)
PO1 John Miller
I remember one of the desk sgts that was w/ my flight when I was out patrolling the fields in Minot. He was so large that they had to bring in an extra large chair for him to fit in. He could not go out in the field, yet they would not do anything about his obesity, therefore they gave him the only job that he was fit to do - desk sgt.
I remember one of the desk sgts that was w/ my flight when I was out patrolling the fields in Minot. He was so large that they had to bring in an extra large chair for him to fit in. He could not go out in the field, yet they would not do anything about his obesity, therefore they gave him the only job that he was fit to do - desk sgt.
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PO1 John Miller
I will have to say though, I work for the Arizona Air National Guard as a civilian contractor and the Airmen I work with are pretty fit for the most part.
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After 20 years in the AF, and interactions with all the other services, I can tell you the AF does indeed have some major problems, but so do all the other services. Most of our problems originate where many others do, with our politically correct masters on Capitol Hill. The AF is now almost completely devoid of leadership above the O4 level. I see no one who seems to understand what their oath really means, much less any willing to uphold that oath. Senior "leadership" now consists of box-checking careerists looking out for themselves. They are unwilling to take risks or rock the boat lest anything bad happen on their watch and put future promotions at risk.
Many I have talked to in the other services relate similar leadership stories, and similar examples of how political correctness is eating the military from within like a cancer. A Marine related to me the other day that in boot camp the DIs can't even use "knife hands" to point at someone anymore. They can't refer to recruits as "POGUES," or a whole host of other things that might hurt their feelings. I don't know if they still do this, but I remember news stories a few years ago where recruits were being given "stress cards" they could hold up to make a Drill Instructor back off if they were feeling "stressed."
What has become of us? The REAL mission of the military is SUPPOSED to be that we are ready, willing, and able to kick anyone's butt, anytime, anywhere, and in such a convincing fashion that no one is willing to be the next contestant. There is no room in that mission for political correctness, social experimentation, or worrying about hurt feelings. We are decaying while our enemies grow stronger. How long will it be before we are unable to dominate a battlefield? Has that day already come?
Many I have talked to in the other services relate similar leadership stories, and similar examples of how political correctness is eating the military from within like a cancer. A Marine related to me the other day that in boot camp the DIs can't even use "knife hands" to point at someone anymore. They can't refer to recruits as "POGUES," or a whole host of other things that might hurt their feelings. I don't know if they still do this, but I remember news stories a few years ago where recruits were being given "stress cards" they could hold up to make a Drill Instructor back off if they were feeling "stressed."
What has become of us? The REAL mission of the military is SUPPOSED to be that we are ready, willing, and able to kick anyone's butt, anytime, anywhere, and in such a convincing fashion that no one is willing to be the next contestant. There is no room in that mission for political correctness, social experimentation, or worrying about hurt feelings. We are decaying while our enemies grow stronger. How long will it be before we are unable to dominate a battlefield? Has that day already come?
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An NCO failing a PT test, say it ain't so. Perhaps fitness means nothing in the air force and leading by example is a quant but antiquated notion. An NCO in the Marine Corp failing a PT test would have more immediate consequences (at least it used to).
I find it hard to believe the NCO failed one PT test and only one and every other one he passed with solid scores. The only possible excuse might be an injury which was not mentioned. The story is a little light on details.
Leadership isn't just being good at turning a wrench or being technically proficient. You need to do a lot of things well, set the example in every way etc. (not perfect but not failing either). The AF PT test is about as easy as they get.
The colonel that wrote the article sounds like he is part of the problem with the culture. When standards slip, everyone is hurt. It is very easy to allow stnadards to slip. It takes no effort at all to go "eh, that is too hard, lower the standard". It requires leadership, discipline, motivation and other attributes to keep standards high.
I find it hard to believe the NCO failed one PT test and only one and every other one he passed with solid scores. The only possible excuse might be an injury which was not mentioned. The story is a little light on details.
Leadership isn't just being good at turning a wrench or being technically proficient. You need to do a lot of things well, set the example in every way etc. (not perfect but not failing either). The AF PT test is about as easy as they get.
The colonel that wrote the article sounds like he is part of the problem with the culture. When standards slip, everyone is hurt. It is very easy to allow stnadards to slip. It takes no effort at all to go "eh, that is too hard, lower the standard". It requires leadership, discipline, motivation and other attributes to keep standards high.
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I am one of those Airman that the Air Force lost, not so much because of PT, but other reasons which lead me to not reenlisting. I was able to, and given the option, but I chose to separate.
I have seen some unlucky Airmen who have had minor set back, improved without a doubt, only to be handed the boot later.
I have seen some unlucky Airmen who have had minor set back, improved without a doubt, only to be handed the boot later.
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