Posted on Oct 24, 2017
Do cadets actually outrank non-commissioned officers?
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I deal with cadets a lot, and they insist they out "rank" every NCO in the army. My usual response is somewhere around the guides of "uh-huh." Can I get some clarity of this?
Posted 8 y ago
Responses: 1044
Cadets are not non commissioned officers, commissioned officers or Warrant Offices. They are students taught by the 3 officer categories I listed previously. This raises a question for me, Are they in the military at all? If not, then a PVT outranks them. :)
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LTC (Join to see)
SMP cadets are members of the guard/reserves and are usually E3-E5, so many of them are NCOs. ROTC cadets can be either SMP or regular contract cadets. contract cadets are members of the IRR. Service Academy cadets are subject to UCMJ and for VA/medical benefits are considered in the line of duty. So, yes, they are in the military.
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LTC Stephen F.
FYI LTC Ken Connolly
Per AR 600–20 • 24 July 2020 5 [USN/USMC personnel reg applies to USNA midshipmen]
Cadets rank just below WO-1 USMA, ROTC and then OCS
Table 1 –1
Grades, Army— Continued
W-2 Pay grade; Title of address: Chief/Mr./Mrs./Miss/Ms.
Abbreviation: CW2
W-1 Pay grade: W –1; Title of address: Mr./Mrs./Miss/Ms.
Abbreviation: WO1
USMA Cadets; Cadet, U.S. Military Academy; Pay grade: Special; Title of address: Mr./Mrs./Miss/Ms./Cadet
Abbreviation: CDT
ROTC cadet Grade: Cadet, Senior Advanced Reserve Officer’s Training Corps (ROTC); Pay grade: Special; Title of address: Mr./Mrs./Miss/Ms./Cadet
Abbreviation: CDT
Officer Candidate School Candidates; Pay grade: Special; Title of address: Candidate
Abbreviation: OC
Warrant Officer Candidate; Pay grade: Special; Title of address: Candidate
Abbreviation: WOC
Enlisted noncommissioned officers
Sergeant Major of the Army; Pay grade: E –9; Title of address: Sergeant Major
Command Sergeant Major2; Pay grade: E –9; Title of address: Sergeant Major
Sergeant Major [3]; Pay grade: E –9; Title of address: Sergeant Major
First Sergeant; Pay grade: E –8; Title of address: First Sergeant
Master Sergeant; Pay grade: E –8; Title of address: Sergeant
Sergeant First Class; Pay grade: E –7; Title of address: Sergeant
Per AR 600–20 • 24 July 2020 5 [USN/USMC personnel reg applies to USNA midshipmen]
Cadets rank just below WO-1 USMA, ROTC and then OCS
Table 1 –1
Grades, Army— Continued
W-2 Pay grade; Title of address: Chief/Mr./Mrs./Miss/Ms.
Abbreviation: CW2
W-1 Pay grade: W –1; Title of address: Mr./Mrs./Miss/Ms.
Abbreviation: WO1
USMA Cadets; Cadet, U.S. Military Academy; Pay grade: Special; Title of address: Mr./Mrs./Miss/Ms./Cadet
Abbreviation: CDT
ROTC cadet Grade: Cadet, Senior Advanced Reserve Officer’s Training Corps (ROTC); Pay grade: Special; Title of address: Mr./Mrs./Miss/Ms./Cadet
Abbreviation: CDT
Officer Candidate School Candidates; Pay grade: Special; Title of address: Candidate
Abbreviation: OC
Warrant Officer Candidate; Pay grade: Special; Title of address: Candidate
Abbreviation: WOC
Enlisted noncommissioned officers
Sergeant Major of the Army; Pay grade: E –9; Title of address: Sergeant Major
Command Sergeant Major2; Pay grade: E –9; Title of address: Sergeant Major
Sergeant Major [3]; Pay grade: E –9; Title of address: Sergeant Major
First Sergeant; Pay grade: E –8; Title of address: First Sergeant
Master Sergeant; Pay grade: E –8; Title of address: Sergeant
Sergeant First Class; Pay grade: E –7; Title of address: Sergeant
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Cadets are not commissioned officers so, my answer is no, they do not outrank anyone. We would jokingly refer to them as "Third Lieutenants". With that said, I've seen a few come through one of the units I was in and, not once did any of them try to pull rank. They were there to learn, period. A couple of them actually came back to the unit after their commission and they were pretty good Platoon Leaders.
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LTC Stephen F.
FYI SFC Michael Peterson
Per AR 600–20 • 24 July 2020 5 [USN/USMC personnel reg applies to USNA midshipmen]
Cadets rank just below WO-1 USMA, ROTC and then OCS
Table 1 –1
Grades, Army— Continued
W-2 Pay grade; Title of address: Chief/Mr./Mrs./Miss/Ms.
Abbreviation: CW2
W-1 Pay grade: W –1; Title of address: Mr./Mrs./Miss/Ms.
Abbreviation: WO1
USMA Cadets; Cadet, U.S. Military Academy; Pay grade: Special; Title of address: Mr./Mrs./Miss/Ms./Cadet
Abbreviation: CDT
ROTC cadet Grade: Cadet, Senior Advanced Reserve Officer’s Training Corps (ROTC); Pay grade: Special; Title of address: Mr./Mrs./Miss/Ms./Cadet
Abbreviation: CDT
Officer Candidate School Candidates; Pay grade: Special; Title of address: Candidate
Abbreviation: OC
Warrant Officer Candidate; Pay grade: Special; Title of address: Candidate
Abbreviation: WOC
Enlisted noncommissioned officers
Sergeant Major of the Army; Pay grade: E –9; Title of address: Sergeant Major
Command Sergeant Major2; Pay grade: E –9; Title of address: Sergeant Major
Sergeant Major [3]; Pay grade: E –9; Title of address: Sergeant Major
First Sergeant; Pay grade: E –8; Title of address: First Sergeant
Master Sergeant; Pay grade: E –8; Title of address: Sergeant
Sergeant First Class; Pay grade: E –7; Title of address: Sergeant
Per AR 600–20 • 24 July 2020 5 [USN/USMC personnel reg applies to USNA midshipmen]
Cadets rank just below WO-1 USMA, ROTC and then OCS
Table 1 –1
Grades, Army— Continued
W-2 Pay grade; Title of address: Chief/Mr./Mrs./Miss/Ms.
Abbreviation: CW2
W-1 Pay grade: W –1; Title of address: Mr./Mrs./Miss/Ms.
Abbreviation: WO1
USMA Cadets; Cadet, U.S. Military Academy; Pay grade: Special; Title of address: Mr./Mrs./Miss/Ms./Cadet
Abbreviation: CDT
ROTC cadet Grade: Cadet, Senior Advanced Reserve Officer’s Training Corps (ROTC); Pay grade: Special; Title of address: Mr./Mrs./Miss/Ms./Cadet
Abbreviation: CDT
Officer Candidate School Candidates; Pay grade: Special; Title of address: Candidate
Abbreviation: OC
Warrant Officer Candidate; Pay grade: Special; Title of address: Candidate
Abbreviation: WOC
Enlisted noncommissioned officers
Sergeant Major of the Army; Pay grade: E –9; Title of address: Sergeant Major
Command Sergeant Major2; Pay grade: E –9; Title of address: Sergeant Major
Sergeant Major [3]; Pay grade: E –9; Title of address: Sergeant Major
First Sergeant; Pay grade: E –8; Title of address: First Sergeant
Master Sergeant; Pay grade: E –8; Title of address: Sergeant
Sergeant First Class; Pay grade: E –7; Title of address: Sergeant
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No. Period. They cannot give orders, you dont salute them, nor call the sir/maam. They hold NO rank in the military. They are cadets/midshipman.
Essentially they are non ranking military members that hold no rank, officer nor enlisted.
Essentially they are non ranking military members that hold no rank, officer nor enlisted.
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SGT Mustafa Stokely
Sir, seems AR 600-20 presents a different picture; ranking cadets below commissioned officers and warrant officers, while they outrank all NCO's. And yes, cadets must be saluted when applicable.
https://mwi.usma.edu/yes-sergeant-actually-west-point-cadet-outrank/
https://mwi.usma.edu/yes-sergeant-actually-west-point-cadet-outrank/
Yes, Sergeant, Actually That West Point Cadet Does Outrank You - Modern War Institute
Scott Faith argues that contrary to popular belief West Point and ROTC cadets outrank NCO's according to Army Command Policy.
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LTC Stephen F.
FYI LtCol Dennis Ivan
Per AR 600–20 • 24 July 2020 5 [USN/USMC personnel reg applies to USNA midshipmen]
Cadets rank just below WO-1 USMA, ROTC and then OCS
Table 1 –1
Grades, Army— Continued
W-2 Pay grade; Title of address: Chief/Mr./Mrs./Miss/Ms.
Abbreviation: CW2
W-1 Pay grade: W –1; Title of address: Mr./Mrs./Miss/Ms.
Abbreviation: WO1
USMA Cadets; Cadet, U.S. Military Academy; Pay grade: Special; Title of address: Mr./Mrs./Miss/Ms./Cadet
Abbreviation: CDT
ROTC cadet Grade: Cadet, Senior Advanced Reserve Officer’s Training Corps (ROTC); Pay grade: Special; Title of address: Mr./Mrs./Miss/Ms./Cadet
Abbreviation: CDT
Officer Candidate School Candidates; Pay grade: Special; Title of address: Candidate
Abbreviation: OC
Warrant Officer Candidate; Pay grade: Special; Title of address: Candidate
Abbreviation: WOC
Enlisted noncommissioned officers
Sergeant Major of the Army; Pay grade: E –9; Title of address: Sergeant Major
Command Sergeant Major2; Pay grade: E –9; Title of address: Sergeant Major
Sergeant Major [3]; Pay grade: E –9; Title of address: Sergeant Major
First Sergeant; Pay grade: E –8; Title of address: First Sergeant
Master Sergeant; Pay grade: E –8; Title of address: Sergeant
Sergeant First Class; Pay grade: E –7; Title of address: Sergeant
Per AR 600–20 • 24 July 2020 5 [USN/USMC personnel reg applies to USNA midshipmen]
Cadets rank just below WO-1 USMA, ROTC and then OCS
Table 1 –1
Grades, Army— Continued
W-2 Pay grade; Title of address: Chief/Mr./Mrs./Miss/Ms.
Abbreviation: CW2
W-1 Pay grade: W –1; Title of address: Mr./Mrs./Miss/Ms.
Abbreviation: WO1
USMA Cadets; Cadet, U.S. Military Academy; Pay grade: Special; Title of address: Mr./Mrs./Miss/Ms./Cadet
Abbreviation: CDT
ROTC cadet Grade: Cadet, Senior Advanced Reserve Officer’s Training Corps (ROTC); Pay grade: Special; Title of address: Mr./Mrs./Miss/Ms./Cadet
Abbreviation: CDT
Officer Candidate School Candidates; Pay grade: Special; Title of address: Candidate
Abbreviation: OC
Warrant Officer Candidate; Pay grade: Special; Title of address: Candidate
Abbreviation: WOC
Enlisted noncommissioned officers
Sergeant Major of the Army; Pay grade: E –9; Title of address: Sergeant Major
Command Sergeant Major2; Pay grade: E –9; Title of address: Sergeant Major
Sergeant Major [3]; Pay grade: E –9; Title of address: Sergeant Major
First Sergeant; Pay grade: E –8; Title of address: First Sergeant
Master Sergeant; Pay grade: E –8; Title of address: Sergeant
Sergeant First Class; Pay grade: E –7; Title of address: Sergeant
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My take on the subject is that a cadet has not been commissioned, therefore has NO rank!!! I didn't need some snot nosed frat boy that has never been trained in any branch try to tell my Soldiers some jacked up crap. He can lead if he gets that far, but as a cadet, he has nothing to do with the training and well-being of my Soldiers. He can watch me train and lead and learn, just don't expect a salute!!!
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LTC Stephen F.
FYI SFC James Shanks
Per AR 600–20 • 24 July 2020 5 [USN/USMC personnel reg applies to USNA midshipmen]
Cadets rank just below WO-1 USMA, ROTC and then OCS
Table 1 –1
Grades, Army— Continued
W-2 Pay grade; Title of address: Chief/Mr./Mrs./Miss/Ms.
Abbreviation: CW2
W-1 Pay grade: W –1; Title of address: Mr./Mrs./Miss/Ms.
Abbreviation: WO1
USMA Cadets; Cadet, U.S. Military Academy; Pay grade: Special; Title of address: Mr./Mrs./Miss/Ms./Cadet
Abbreviation: CDT
ROTC cadet Grade: Cadet, Senior Advanced Reserve Officer’s Training Corps (ROTC); Pay grade: Special; Title of address: Mr./Mrs./Miss/Ms./Cadet
Abbreviation: CDT
Officer Candidate School Candidates; Pay grade: Special; Title of address: Candidate
Abbreviation: OC
Warrant Officer Candidate; Pay grade: Special; Title of address: Candidate
Abbreviation: WOC
Enlisted noncommissioned officers
Sergeant Major of the Army; Pay grade: E –9; Title of address: Sergeant Major
Command Sergeant Major2; Pay grade: E –9; Title of address: Sergeant Major
Sergeant Major [3]; Pay grade: E –9; Title of address: Sergeant Major
First Sergeant; Pay grade: E –8; Title of address: First Sergeant
Master Sergeant; Pay grade: E –8; Title of address: Sergeant
Sergeant First Class; Pay grade: E –7; Title of address: Sergeant
Per AR 600–20 • 24 July 2020 5 [USN/USMC personnel reg applies to USNA midshipmen]
Cadets rank just below WO-1 USMA, ROTC and then OCS
Table 1 –1
Grades, Army— Continued
W-2 Pay grade; Title of address: Chief/Mr./Mrs./Miss/Ms.
Abbreviation: CW2
W-1 Pay grade: W –1; Title of address: Mr./Mrs./Miss/Ms.
Abbreviation: WO1
USMA Cadets; Cadet, U.S. Military Academy; Pay grade: Special; Title of address: Mr./Mrs./Miss/Ms./Cadet
Abbreviation: CDT
ROTC cadet Grade: Cadet, Senior Advanced Reserve Officer’s Training Corps (ROTC); Pay grade: Special; Title of address: Mr./Mrs./Miss/Ms./Cadet
Abbreviation: CDT
Officer Candidate School Candidates; Pay grade: Special; Title of address: Candidate
Abbreviation: OC
Warrant Officer Candidate; Pay grade: Special; Title of address: Candidate
Abbreviation: WOC
Enlisted noncommissioned officers
Sergeant Major of the Army; Pay grade: E –9; Title of address: Sergeant Major
Command Sergeant Major2; Pay grade: E –9; Title of address: Sergeant Major
Sergeant Major [3]; Pay grade: E –9; Title of address: Sergeant Major
First Sergeant; Pay grade: E –8; Title of address: First Sergeant
Master Sergeant; Pay grade: E –8; Title of address: Sergeant
Sergeant First Class; Pay grade: E –7; Title of address: Sergeant
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I was a cadet (USAFA) but my dad, (a retired major, and a mustang) told me that my best friend would be my sergeant when I was in a unit, and I would be wise to treat them with respect and to use their wisdom.
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During my years in the Army, cadets were considered 3rd Lieutenants, sort of in a position where they might tell some folks what to do but not too advisable since everyone knew they knew little or nothing unless they were prior enlisted.
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The proper greeting an NCO should render to a cadet is "thank you for your service" and ask them if they can buy you something with their military discount.
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LTC James McElreath
A cadet does receive an ID card with cadet on it and is authorized to buy from the store. That is where the cadet buys his uniforms just li8ke any officer would as well. The cadet uniforms are not necessarily Mil Spec Issue.
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LOL! Been there, done that. I was staying in billeting at Charleston AFB, and the clerk put an Air Force Academy cadet in the room with me. They were pretty nice rooms, each with a private bathroom. I was a TSGT (E-6) at the time and thought it was cool. I was going to get a chance to talk to a cadet. But she was insulted that they would put her in a room with a lowly NCO. She went to the front desk and complained, and from what I heard later, her commander was there, and he chewed her out and had her moved to a smaller room usually used by E-1 - E3 and she had to use the common latrine down the hall instead of in the room.
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I see so many comments on here spouting opinion but without actually citing ANY regulations or other doctrine. Fact is that by the regulation (look up Army Regulation 600-20), Cadets do out rank Enlisted members. They are addressed as “Sir,” “Ma’am,” “Mr,” , “Ms,” or “Cadet {Last Name}.” They are saluted. In certain situations, they may well be put “in charge.” Now yes, Cadets worth their salt should probably listen to Senior NCOs before making decisions or trying to give orders. They are, after all, students who are trying to gain knowledge and experience. However, I’d also suggest that SNCOs should probably give them the leeway to make decisions and give orders in the appropriate situations. That’s how said knowledge and experience is gained. It’s “practice,” if you will. I mean, is a Cadet on his/her summer training actually going to be a PL or Company Commander? No. But, he or she may well be put in charge of a particular event or function and need to make decisions or give orders in order to get that particular job done. Give that Cadet the space necessary to do that. SNCO, make appropriate recommendations and help guide that Cadet much like you would advise that 2LT PL. Cadet, don’t let your technical place in the rank structure go to your head. It’s that simple. At the end of the day, what does the regulation say? Abide by that and you’ll never go wrong.
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Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis
Thank you, Robert, for the factual reference to Regulations. I would suspect that similar Regulations exist in all the Branches of Service.
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In 1983, my NG Unit went to West Point, to instruct in Helicopter Operations. We were told to address Cadets, as Cadet + Name. We were not to call them sir, or saluted as they were not officers. they in turn were to address us by rank and name. There were no conflicts, as the cadets were made aware of this. Todays young cadets, being of a more recent generation, may feel they are privaleged to be accepted a officers to be. These instructions came from an O-6 on Staff bat the Point.
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