Posted on Mar 9, 2015
Do morals and values still matter?
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The recent case of Gen. Petraeus prompted me to think about this a little.
We frequently hear cases of important men who get taken down with sex scandals, financial scandals, ethics violations, etc. Yet, quite often, these people skate and get re-elected, re-appointed or whatever.
Why does society tolerate this, and what is it about leadership that makes men lose their way? (I specifically call out men, because the vast majority of such cases involve men in leadership.)
We frequently hear cases of important men who get taken down with sex scandals, financial scandals, ethics violations, etc. Yet, quite often, these people skate and get re-elected, re-appointed or whatever.
Why does society tolerate this, and what is it about leadership that makes men lose their way? (I specifically call out men, because the vast majority of such cases involve men in leadership.)
Values
Leadership
Morals
Posted 11 y ago
Responses: 54
They keep getting away with it because their peers are the ones handing down the punishments. They lose their way because they are human and like a lot of people are living in the new 'entitlement era'. At some point, we, as Americans, have decided that we no longer care about our 'neighbors', we care about how much money and toys we can accumulate. We are no longer concerned about making our country great again, we just want 'a piece of the action'. Money still makes good men do bad things if that is how they measure success. I don't mean to act as if I am sitting on some morale high ground, it just happens that he Army values are in line with my own, so for me it is easier I think.
*edited to add*
I also feel it is important to point out that we have tons of high ranking folks in various positions all over the world, and the vast majority of these people live their lives within the military values.
*edited to add*
I also feel it is important to point out that we have tons of high ranking folks in various positions all over the world, and the vast majority of these people live their lives within the military values.
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You are absolutely correct. This is the principle of "One aw $#!+ wipes out 1000 attaboys..."
I do believe our military leadership is still standing proud. But my concern comes with the leadership of a country where we have a leader who has never had to sweat , run, and train and fight for this country. In the future I do believe that all up coming presidents should have to have some military background in their life.
This country is in a moral dilemma and needs much reevaluation.
"A lie doesn't become truth, wrong doesn't become right, and evil doesn't become good, just because it's accepted by the majority." Author Unknown
"A lie doesn't become truth, wrong doesn't become right, and evil doesn't become good, just because it's accepted by the majority." Author Unknown
Loss of morals & ethics doesn't just happen to men in powerful positions. We are all flawed in our own ways.
It's learning from your mistakes and how you make amends that will set you apart from the narcissist.
It's learning from your mistakes and how you make amends that will set you apart from the narcissist.
The best leaders are the ones who lead by example, of course we have seen the "do what I say not what I do type" but at the end of the day which one do we respect and willingly follow more? It saddens me that out of the 53,509 Naval Officers (1), it is the 76 Naval Officers (total since 2011) that have been "fired" (2) that many focus on. But then again most tend to remember the "bad" versus the routine good anyways.
Sources:
(1) http://www.navy.mil/navydata/nav_legacy.asp?id=146
(2) http://www.stripes.com/news/fired-navy-skippers-often-stay-in-service-1.317935
Sources:
(1) http://www.navy.mil/navydata/nav_legacy.asp?id=146
(2) http://www.stripes.com/news/fired-navy-skippers-often-stay-in-service-1.317935
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PO1 (Join to see) This is very true. Hence my Facebook post, in the face of the Ferguson Crisis:
https://www.facebook.com/ravjaron/posts/ [login to see] 310577?pnref=story
https://www.facebook.com/ravjaron/posts/ [login to see] 310577?pnref=story
Morals, values, character should always matter. This is what separates us from the uncivilized Countries, to include Muslim Countries where there is no value on life.
The simple fact that someone poses this question speaks volumes to the severe need for both morality and values. I'm not dictating what those are, they can be unique to each person or situation, but we seriously need to regain soldiers who defend principles over paychecks. Ideals rather than benefits and morality over self!
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1LT William Clardy I can't tell exactly how long you were in the Army from your profile, but you were a mustang, so I am sure I'm not the first person who ever said that to you. In fact, it ultimately comes from the book of Proverbs, but I don't have the citation at hand.
It is a very common military philosophy that any error you make can end your career. I was not promoted to O5 because of that very philosophy.
I do acknowledge our humanity. My point is that when one reaches the lofty heights that Gen Petraeus did, he incurs additional responsibility to "keep his nose clean". His breach was far worse than that of a lower ranking person doing exactly the same thing, because of the special amount of trust and responsibility given him. In WWII, he would have been a 5-Star General. Why he wasn't in this war, I don't know. But, that means that he is under a much bigger magnifying glass.
People commit adultery all the time. People tell secrets all the time. It becomes newsworthy at Gen Petraeus' level where it won't be for the average person on the street.
And regarding my statement that absolute power corrupts absolutely, it really relates to the same thing. The more power a person has, the more damage that can be done with corruption. Yes, of course people in positions of small authority can be corrupt, but it is the people in the top positions whose corruption is so destructive.
It is a very common military philosophy that any error you make can end your career. I was not promoted to O5 because of that very philosophy.
I do acknowledge our humanity. My point is that when one reaches the lofty heights that Gen Petraeus did, he incurs additional responsibility to "keep his nose clean". His breach was far worse than that of a lower ranking person doing exactly the same thing, because of the special amount of trust and responsibility given him. In WWII, he would have been a 5-Star General. Why he wasn't in this war, I don't know. But, that means that he is under a much bigger magnifying glass.
People commit adultery all the time. People tell secrets all the time. It becomes newsworthy at Gen Petraeus' level where it won't be for the average person on the street.
And regarding my statement that absolute power corrupts absolutely, it really relates to the same thing. The more power a person has, the more damage that can be done with corruption. Yes, of course people in positions of small authority can be corrupt, but it is the people in the top positions whose corruption is so destructive.
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Ok. I didn't pose the question and I didn't make a judgment on anyone. Especially 100% across the board. I simply stated we needed moral soldiers with values. Nothing more
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Roger. Tracking now sir. I see who was responding to whom now. I agree. One mistake shouldn't break an otherwise sterling career. However, this is a HUGE lapse in judgement. It does tarnish my opinion of him. Can't help it.
1LT William Clardy
LCDR Jaron Matlow, I have indeed heard and read that standard countless times over the years -- and I continue to adamantly and openly argue against it.
I also disagree with you about the destructiveness of corruption -- the cumulative destruction caused by petty corruptions is almost certainly greater than singular betrayals at the higher levels. Think about how much more effective even such mundane things as personnel actions and operational planning would be if we could actually trust the reports being submitted. For example, do you have any idea how many scores of millions of dollars had to be spent regaining accountability for mission-critical equipment during OIF? In one of those "too painful to comprehend" moments, I once got permission (and access) to compare unit readiness reports to their commanders' hand receipts, and the mismatch was incredible -- in some units, there was no overlap between the vehicles they were reporting for readiness purposes and the ones that their CO claimed to have inventoried monthly, and in most units even the total numbers of each type didn't match. That was the cumulative impact of company-grade and field-grade officers deciding that they didn't need to accurately report the number of up-armored HMMWVs in their possession ("This is my personal HMMWV, which I don't have to account for"). The cumulative impact gets even worse when you consider how much money and effort also went into ensuring that effective ECM kits and upgrades got distributed to the folks with equipment needing it. (I would note that my impression is that the petty corruption is at *least* as bad over on the civil-service side.)
Lastly, there is a very simple reason that Petreaus never became a 5-star -- he never commanded enough troops. Even back in World War II, he almost certainly would not have been promoted to that level. GEN George S. Patton was a Lieutenant General for almost the entire time he commanded Third Army -- he didn't get his fourth star until the final month of the war in Europe. In my own view, it seems odd that a modern-day theater commander with operational control of little more than a single corps should hold a higher rank than what was once considered appropriate to command an Army in combat with 3 full corps (in other words, almost equal to the full strength of the U.S. Army today)
I also disagree with you about the destructiveness of corruption -- the cumulative destruction caused by petty corruptions is almost certainly greater than singular betrayals at the higher levels. Think about how much more effective even such mundane things as personnel actions and operational planning would be if we could actually trust the reports being submitted. For example, do you have any idea how many scores of millions of dollars had to be spent regaining accountability for mission-critical equipment during OIF? In one of those "too painful to comprehend" moments, I once got permission (and access) to compare unit readiness reports to their commanders' hand receipts, and the mismatch was incredible -- in some units, there was no overlap between the vehicles they were reporting for readiness purposes and the ones that their CO claimed to have inventoried monthly, and in most units even the total numbers of each type didn't match. That was the cumulative impact of company-grade and field-grade officers deciding that they didn't need to accurately report the number of up-armored HMMWVs in their possession ("This is my personal HMMWV, which I don't have to account for"). The cumulative impact gets even worse when you consider how much money and effort also went into ensuring that effective ECM kits and upgrades got distributed to the folks with equipment needing it. (I would note that my impression is that the petty corruption is at *least* as bad over on the civil-service side.)
Lastly, there is a very simple reason that Petreaus never became a 5-star -- he never commanded enough troops. Even back in World War II, he almost certainly would not have been promoted to that level. GEN George S. Patton was a Lieutenant General for almost the entire time he commanded Third Army -- he didn't get his fourth star until the final month of the war in Europe. In my own view, it seems odd that a modern-day theater commander with operational control of little more than a single corps should hold a higher rank than what was once considered appropriate to command an Army in combat with 3 full corps (in other words, almost equal to the full strength of the U.S. Army today)
I honestly believe that they do ! Unfortunately we see our values threatened, pushed to the limits by Very highly profiled leaders walking all over human rights, with little hesitation or consideration for the values of others. I too, have seen other individuals actions that have shaken my morals, My Values.. Just recently, the removal of the American flag from the college dorm.. In 1966, they burned the American Flag !! The right for some to do this is protected by the very Constitution that we ALL swore to defend.. To much blood has been spilled for our Flag.. She Deserves the Utmost Respect !!! Thank You..
I think if we look at elected officials that have made it to a leadership role, both men and women have lost their way. Those promises they make that keep getting themselves elected no longer matter.
I honestly believe there is some secret club where they all protect one another once they get to a certain level.
I honestly believe there is some secret club where they all protect one another once they get to a certain level.
Our society embarked on a systematic devaluation of values in society that has been progressing for decades now. But in spite of the attempts to remove values and morals from public in society, they still carry the same value that they always have in shaping the beliefs and actions of every human. They just don't get much talking about in society at large aside from the milkwater value of "tolerance."
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