Posted on Mar 10, 2014
Do prior enlisted service members make better officers?
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I've talked with many officers throughout my career. I've noticed most have the ability to effectively lead and guide enlisted members. Most (not all) of the officers I've seen who are truly among the best are prior enlisted. Do you think being enlisted contributes to the leadership effectiveness of officers?
Training
Enlisted
Officers
Military Career
Posted 12 y ago
Responses: 109
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I am one of those. In some cases, the answer is no. Some (very few, but they are out there), feel that because they were enlisted they know EXACTLY what the enlisted job is, and will not bend an inch to help with the mission and are very quick to remind the enlisted troops what they need to do. MOST, I feel have an additional insight that will help them lead and work with enlisted. The fact that they have "been there, done that" sits well with many enlisted members. It also lends a degree of credibility when they speak. The other thing that they are really good at is career counseling. They are able to discuss some of the programs that are available to enlisted for crossing over, OR education. The provide a wealth of info. Are they really better LEADERS? Maybe, maybe not, but they bring many other skills to the table that will benefit the troops that they are leading.
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LTC Paul Labrador
Being prior service may provide an advantage initially, but by the time an officer is a captain, the differences are much harder to spot.
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Capt Jeff S.
Being prior enlisted is a two edged sword. It can work for or against you, depending on how you handle it.
Initially you get respect because of your background, but lazy troops will test you to see if they can use that to their advantage. "Aw come on Sir, you remember what it was like. Why do we have to dig in? We're just going to move in a couple hours..." While they might have a point, you still have orders to follow and if you falter in carrying them out it's you that's going to hang, not them.
You have to remember that you're not there to be buddies with the troops. Familiarity breeds contempt, so you have to maintain a certain amount of distance to keep things professional. You should ALWAYS project that officer image to them -- regardless of where you came from. They need to see you hanging with your peers, not them.
The benefit of having prior enlisted experience comes out in that you might have experience doing tasks that you are tasking them to do so you have a better idea of what to expect in terms of their performance. You're more savvy to what troops do to try and get over. It's easier to get into their heads and pick up on what they are thinking because you've been there and done that, but like LTC Paul Labrador said, the differences are harder to spot by the time officers reach captain.
Initially you get respect because of your background, but lazy troops will test you to see if they can use that to their advantage. "Aw come on Sir, you remember what it was like. Why do we have to dig in? We're just going to move in a couple hours..." While they might have a point, you still have orders to follow and if you falter in carrying them out it's you that's going to hang, not them.
You have to remember that you're not there to be buddies with the troops. Familiarity breeds contempt, so you have to maintain a certain amount of distance to keep things professional. You should ALWAYS project that officer image to them -- regardless of where you came from. They need to see you hanging with your peers, not them.
The benefit of having prior enlisted experience comes out in that you might have experience doing tasks that you are tasking them to do so you have a better idea of what to expect in terms of their performance. You're more savvy to what troops do to try and get over. It's easier to get into their heads and pick up on what they are thinking because you've been there and done that, but like LTC Paul Labrador said, the differences are harder to spot by the time officers reach captain.
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LT Louis McKellar
My first duty onboard ship was electronic materials officer. The first PMS spot check I conducted was on the radar mast. I figured if I chose to go aloft 80 feet off the deck that no one would attempt to gun deck any preventative maintenance.
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LCDR (Join to see)
If I am totally honest with myself, I think that my biggest mistake was that I was mentally still enlisted but wearing the butter bar. I had not fully made that transition and was not able to step back and see the bigger picture. I caution fellow enlisted that are becoming officers to not have that prior enlisted chip on your should. Yes, you should know the ropes. Yes, people will expect more of you. You still have a LOT to learn. Its just different stuff than a non prior.
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PFC - this is as loaded as it gets. Simple answer is: it depends on the individual. If one is a natural leader, having previously been an NCO doesn't matter. Some officers - for example GEN Petraeus or GEN Ordierno (sp?) were never enlisted and they're outstanding leaders. By the same token, I've met met Officers who were prior enlisted and they turned out to be pretty squared away, too. The one thing that often happens is an Officer who was a prior NCO sometimes can't resist driving in the NCO lane and it causes me no end of ass-chap. That's a sure-fire sign of an insecure, incompetent leader. The answer is one of those "you'll know it when you see it" types of things. One size sure doesn't fit all in this case.
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MSgt Marvin Kinderknecht
As a first 1SG i am sure you were exposed to many. Observation is the best and you are spot on. As a flyboy, I flew with thm all. good leaders, bad leaders, good pilots, bad pilots. it is the person that counts.
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Better? Maybe. More well-rounded? Definitely.<br><br>Having a better appreciation of 'where you came from' and for the ones you command /lead may keep someone grounded, when needed.
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SGT (Join to see)
SGM Matthew Quick - I'm guessing I'm just now seeing this because I wasn't "mentioned" per RP notification system.
I believe what I meant was similar to much of what Maj Chris Nelson said in his response. It can create a strong arrogance.
I believe what I meant was similar to much of what Maj Chris Nelson said in his response. It can create a strong arrogance.
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When I was an enlisted soldier, I did not care how my officers earned their commissions. I judged them on how competent they were and if they cared about us soldiers. When I became an officer, I remember that and tried to be the kind of officer I would have respected. As for who make better officer, there is no answer to that question it all depends on the individual.
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CMSgt Mark Schubert
Sir, I think you answered the question quite well with your response! The fact that you remembered to be the kind of officer you respected as an enlisted member is an insight that non-prior enlisted officers just cannot get first hand. I sure hope that made/makes you better!
Also, it appears that some people read into the question that if you are not a prior service officer, you can't be "as good". I certainly do not think you cannot be a good officer without the prior enlisted experience because there are many ways to do that - and doing it correctly will make you a great officer.
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MSgt Marvin Kinderknecht
Pretty simple. Be a people person. If you can get them promoted, they will get you promoted. Worked for me. Always train, mentor, advise, listen as you go up the latter and the sky is the limit.
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CPT Lawrence Cable
In many ways, I think the bad officers had more effect on how I acted than many of the good ones. I seen good and bad ones from every form of commissioning for Direct Commission to the Academy. In general, OCS officers that have some enlisted time under their belts and West Pointers after some of the shine gets knocked of that ring seem to end up being better than most.
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I feel it depends on what paygrade they were before becoming an officer..
E-1 to E-4.. tend to be a little power hungry, and seem to take a little longer to embrace their new roll.
E-5.. Decent officers, a little much on the micro-management.
E-6.. Seem to have the best mix of skills before becoming an officer and it shows when they become an officer..
E-7 to E-9.. Great skill set to become an officer, but I have noticed that they never reallly let go of their inner NCO. I have seen these officers really get in to "NCO Business". I am not saying that is bad, but it does add a little friction to the Officer-NCO relationship.
That is just my $0.02
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CMDCM Gene Treants
SSG Jason Hoadley you make the exact point I was going to make. Totally agree. And right on with the prior E-7 to E-9.
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MAJ (Join to see)
I like the break down by grade. Can't really argue against it, either, but that is just based on my observations.
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MAJ Samuel Weber
I’d have to disagree. I was a SFC, when I switched the biggest issue I had was that my NCO did not perform to standard. Having been a Senior NCO, I knew what was expected and at what level my NCOs should be performing at. So I guess what I’m saying is that excuses (and there were many, to my disappointment) had an effective range of zero meters. I think NCOs forget that Officers have oversight of everything. When the confidence isn’t earned, then greater supervision is required. Once my NCOs understood this, they became more proactive and when they were unsure of the direction they were going then they sought guidance. Why is it so hard for NCOs to seek guidance from an officer when they are unsure? Is it a pride thing? Is it the fact that they think they should know? When I was an NCO, I tried to communicate with my Senior NCOs and Officers as often as possible to ensure I was meeting the intent.
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Let me preface this by saying that I have experienced exceptional AND lack-luster leadership from all commission sources.
Throughout my transition (I was a direct commission source), I'd been peppered with the question from multiple angles about how I was going to leave my NCO ways behind; Direct Commission Board and numerous leaders during my EBOLC. Having crossed over at E8, there was some assurance that I had to provide each time I answered that question. It's been my experience that in more cases than not, the Mustang was more risk tolerant which inherantly gives way to more aggressive results. So, does one interpret those aggressive results as better?
I appreciate every bit of my enlisted experience and it has definitely helped craft my leadership style, but also know that my lane is not embedded anymore in the NCO support channel, nor is it my lane to to be the trainer. My Be, Know, Do has shifted. "Good" officers will be able to judge at what point they need to "engage".
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MAJ (Join to see)
Forgot to mention... My best officer was also a 11B SSG former Drill Sergeant, turned 11A. Thought it worth mentioning.
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The biggest Micro Managers I have ever seen were Prior NCOs who knew how to do your job better than you did.
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CMSgt Mark Schubert
Sir, It's a skill that is typically even better understood by officers who were prior enlisted as they have likely seen this behaviour and had the opportunity to observe what not to do. In some cases, teaching someone a few tips and tricks from prior experience can be perceived as you mention, and in many (if not all) of those cases, it could be that the receiver is overly confident that they are "doing it right" (so what's the problem) and don't need any help. We all need to remember that we are never to old (or to confident) to understand we all can use some pointers or advice on how something can be done. I always welcome other opinions.
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SSG Mike Angelo
I tend to agree with the major...it is true...i ve seen and bear witness and thats because NCOs in the chain allow this type of behavior of enlisted officers. A prior NCO with command and UCMJ authority can be a dangerous breed for all. Used to lead from the front, now leading in the rear...it gets boring. It is a transition too. set limits and boundaries.
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The accession process doesn’t determine who becomes the best officers. It comes down to the best people who choose to become officers. I’ve met dirtbags and all stars from OCS, West Point, and College Options. Prior service enlisted have a better understanding of how the military works, but that doesn’t always translate to becoming a better officer.
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As a retired 1stSgt of Marines, in most cases the prior enlisted marine has a better understanding of the mission of the Marine Corps and if was a good NCO/SNCO then he has a step above the Academy or OCS or PLC Officer who has no prior service. I have been lucky to have had some Mustangs in my career who were outstanding Officer who were good at there job and look out for there Marines beyond what the Corps required of them. It is rear in this day and age for a Company Commander to know by name all those who are in his/her company.So I do think for the most part that prior service Marine make better Officers.
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Capt Jeff S.
I agree to a point, but the higher up in rank one goes as an officer, the less difference there appears to be between the prior enlisted and other officers.
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As a prior enlisted officer, I'm going to do my best to speak objectively here. Of course I want to say mustang officers are better, but I've seen it go both ways. They're either really good or really bad. Most, I would agree, are in the better category as you noted. And yes, a good NCO/SNCO officer is a step above the OCS or PLC Officer with no prior service -- at least initially. But the longer officers serve, and the more experience they get, the less noticeable the prior service advantage. I have served with some officers that came straight from college that were very sharp, had excellent leadership, etc. and it didn't take them long to figure things out.
If you were to close your eyes, so to speak, and observe two Colonels (one prior enlisted and one not), would you be able to tell which was which without looking at their ribbons or reading their bios?
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As a prior enlisted officer, I'm going to do my best to speak objectively here. Of course I want to say mustang officers are better, but I've seen it go both ways. They're either really good or really bad. Most, I would agree, are in the better category as you noted. And yes, a good NCO/SNCO officer is a step above the OCS or PLC Officer with no prior service -- at least initially. But the longer officers serve, and the more experience they get, the less noticeable the prior service advantage. I have served with some officers that came straight from college that were very sharp, had excellent leadership, etc. and it didn't take them long to figure things out.
If you were to close your eyes, so to speak, and observe two Colonels (one prior enlisted and one not), would you be able to tell which was which without looking at their ribbons or reading their bios?
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LTC Paul Labrador
I agree that prior service officers will have an initial advantage....but as Capt Schwager stated, the differences become less apparent rather quickly once experience and maturity is gained.
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