Posted on Sep 25, 2015
Do you believe the 2 women Rangers passed on their own merits or were they given special treatment?
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Women in the Military
Ranger School
Standards
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I believe they were given special treatment or took testosterone. I have always been a top performing female. I am proud of the value I add to my unit and the Army as a whole. My question is this, did they pass the MALE APFT for 17 yr olds like their counterparts have to, to the same percentage standard? Why do we even have a female APFT standard if there are no physical differences? I thought the Army appreciates diversity. Now females must be like a male to be " the best"? I am, and will remain, 100% female AND 100% Soldier.
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SSG (Join to see)
SFC (Join to see) - Sfc Hairston, I came back into the military as a 41 year old specialist in 2008 and I usually get about 70 push UPS and 83 sit UPS on my pt test I was running a 1530 2 mile until my knee got me a permanent profile which I got upgraded from bike swim to pace distance running. I currently have a 2532 2 and a half mile walk I am convinced it is all how bad u want it. I applaud everyone who puts extra time and energy to better themself
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SSG (Join to see)
SFC (Join to see) - your right about the standard part I guess my point is I believe in leading from the front like you do but at the same time I understand my limitations but limitations are not the end of the line. I believe if a person wants to push themselves regardless of gender or age that person can kick butt at least that is what I try to show soldiers then I try to encourage soldiers
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CPT (Join to see)
SFC (Join to see), I apologize for misinterpreting your post. However, I know without a shadow of a doubt that CPT Griest and 1LT Haver were held to the same physical standards at Ranger School as their male counterparts. Furthermore, their physiques are not remarkably muscular, as they are built like triathletes. They should be applauded and emulated, not castigated.
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To say they did not pass on their own merits would be a huge insult to the Rangers and everything the training stands for.
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CH (CPT) Heather Davis
The CIC implements policies, policies implement change. I got it, and now we have a sharp and EO block in our evaluations. When I was the first female in my division I was punched in formation. This does not fly in our military. This us and them has to stop.
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CPT John Hanaberry
Sgt Reno. Ranger tab. Nov ' 66. Under 'OLD' Ranger rules NO females would have passed We had NO RECYCLES allowed. Except medical You get ONE shot to complete in 9 WEEKS NOT this 4 to 6 MONTHS Nonsense Standards HAVE been LOWERED Charlie Beckwith was Camp Cmdr. The last thing I needed on the Battlefield was a girl. RVN Inf Combat Vet Ranger Advisor Vietnamese Army. ' 68 - ' 69
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For you consideration:
Along about the 6-7th grade females find that they cannot successfully compete with their male peers in ANY physical body to body sport. By the 9-10th grade it is not even a topic of discussion except as a soundbite for a news story. By the end of high school it is universally recognized that females are not capable of the same physical performance standards as males.
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No society, country, nor group or organization has been able to eliminate gender differences in physical sport competition!
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But there seems to be people that think that women can compete against men in COMBAT! And let us not forget, COMBAT is a brutally hard PHYSICAL COMPETITION that includes KILLING your opponent. I fail to see the logic that indicates that this is a sustainable course of action.
The proponents for this inclusive course of action totally ignore 5000+ years of human history. If they were honest they would pit groups of females against groups of males in physical competition and compare the results. But of course, this has been done millions of times in past wars, it did not end well for females. This stupidity will not end well for our females either.
Along about the 6-7th grade females find that they cannot successfully compete with their male peers in ANY physical body to body sport. By the 9-10th grade it is not even a topic of discussion except as a soundbite for a news story. By the end of high school it is universally recognized that females are not capable of the same physical performance standards as males.
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No society, country, nor group or organization has been able to eliminate gender differences in physical sport competition!
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But there seems to be people that think that women can compete against men in COMBAT! And let us not forget, COMBAT is a brutally hard PHYSICAL COMPETITION that includes KILLING your opponent. I fail to see the logic that indicates that this is a sustainable course of action.
The proponents for this inclusive course of action totally ignore 5000+ years of human history. If they were honest they would pit groups of females against groups of males in physical competition and compare the results. But of course, this has been done millions of times in past wars, it did not end well for females. This stupidity will not end well for our females either.
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CPT John Hanaberry
Hey Maj Mike Y. You are so correct. Ranger tab. Nov ' 66 under ' OLD ' Ranger. School rules. NO RECYCLES except medical you got ONE shot to complete in 9 WEEKS NOT this 4 to 6 MONTHS Nonsense ths last thing I need on the Battlefield is a girl. RVN Inf Combat Vet Ranger Advisor Vietnamese Army. ' 68 - ' 69
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This is offensive to even imply that this is a possibility. The Ranger school is one of the toughest in all of the military. It is pass or fail. Once you complete the course, you are a Ranger, you have earned it. Like many other Special Operators, Rangers may be called upon to serve in special missions and given the opportunity to sacrifice their lives in the service of this great nation. The tab indicates you are a Ranger, not where you graduated in the class, who you teamed up with, or "if special considerations were made" to get you through the course. To these two newest Rangers, I proudly salute you and wish you luck in your chosen profession. Many will always doubt the accomplishments of those who succeed at something first. This is a major milestone in your careers and that of military history. Go out and do your job as Rangers and prove the doubters wrong.
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CPT John Hanaberry
1st Sgt K. Ranger tab Nov ' 66. Standards HAVE been LOWERED. 'OLD' Ranger rules. NO RECYCLES Allowed. You got ONE chance to complete in 9 WEEKS NOT this 4 to 6 MONTHS nonsense. NO females would have passed Charlie Beckwith was Camp Cmdr. Enough w Social Experiments and Political Correctness RVN Inf Combat Vet Ranger Advisor Vietnamese. Army ' 68 - ' 69
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There is no way to know that for sure! Unless someone comes forward. I dont understand why the Army did not first require women to meet the male standard across the board then open the enlisted and officer Infantry courses then send them to Ranger School. Had the Army done that, not only would there be a lot less "angst" but more women probably would have made it through the course! Of course hindsight is 20/20!
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SSG Robert Webster
SFC James Needles - What unit had the female XO that you are referring to? Thank you.
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SFC James Needles
MSG(P) Yorski, MAJ Parker, SSG Webster - I apologize for taking so long to respond to your comments. They got me thinking that I may have been mistaken, and didn't have my facts straight. That was the case in some respects. Here is the correct information.
*The Female officer I was referring to was assigned to the Special Troops BN 4th BDE, 82ND Airborne Division. She was the MI Platoon Leader.
*She was the S-2 for the 1st -508th.
*She completed the Maneuver Captains, Career Course.
*She recently completed Path Finders School.
Gentlemen, This officer is definitely top tier. All these are notable accomplishments. Again, I apologize for not providing the correct facts the first time. Thank you for reminding me that as NCO's and Officers we are obligated to provide the truest facts in a timely manner. Even if you are retired, which I am
*The Female officer I was referring to was assigned to the Special Troops BN 4th BDE, 82ND Airborne Division. She was the MI Platoon Leader.
*She was the S-2 for the 1st -508th.
*She completed the Maneuver Captains, Career Course.
*She recently completed Path Finders School.
Gentlemen, This officer is definitely top tier. All these are notable accomplishments. Again, I apologize for not providing the correct facts the first time. Thank you for reminding me that as NCO's and Officers we are obligated to provide the truest facts in a timely manner. Even if you are retired, which I am
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MAJ(P) (Join to see)
Didn't say it ever was a "prerequisite" or should be. I said the women would have been better prepared to lead patrols had they attended the courses. The other point being is why the rush to send women to Ranger School? Why not conduct it in increments to measure success or failure each step of the way? As I said before require the male standard across the board, then open the Infantry courses, then Ranger School.
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The better question is do I care? Do I care what the Kardashians are doing? Do I care about Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner? Do I care about the Pope's visit? The answer to all of these is not just no, but hell no.
I know at 51 I am not going to pass Ranger school anytime soon, if they did great, if it was lowered, then they have to live with it. Not me or anyone else. Would other Ranger's be ticked off, I can't say because I am not one, therefore not my place to say.
I know at 51 I am not going to pass Ranger school anytime soon, if they did great, if it was lowered, then they have to live with it. Not me or anyone else. Would other Ranger's be ticked off, I can't say because I am not one, therefore not my place to say.
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I have no personal knowledge of the situation, but it is fully reasonable to me that the treatment would be different. The Marines have been treating women differently for as long as I can remember. Their PFT does not include pull-ups as is required for men -- instead, there is the flexed-arm hang.
I make no comment about the relative superiority/inferiority of either method, since I simply do not care. But it IS different.
I make no comment about the relative superiority/inferiority of either method, since I simply do not care. But it IS different.
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I believed they earned that honor. I saw the panel of the newest Ranger graduates and one of the soldiers said that (I forgot her name, sorry) said she carried HIS rucksack on top of hers when he couldn't go further.
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SSG (Join to see)
The problem is that a lot of people do not trust our politicians to do the right thing, we will never know if these women passed fair and square and that is unfortunate. Today we have programs in place because of dishonest behavior in our ranks such as sexual harassment, assault, discrimination etc. We have to find a way to keep the politicians out of our military schools! For the record I believe these women did better than I could do too bad they will never get the credit they most likely deserve, because like I said we will never know.
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Since this came out in People magazine and not some right-wing conspiracy blog, I believe there is at least some truth to this. Sadly, it does not surprise me either. Regardless of the ultimate truth, these two officers will always be tainted by these allegations. I am sure every other prior Ranger school graduate will look at them and wonder.
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CPT (Join to see)
Sir, CPT Griest finished second overall on the 12 mile ruck. That is an objective fact. Both she and 1LT Haver are athletic studs.
It is truly pathetic that numerous males are so insecure about their masculinity that they must resort to petty allegations.
It is truly pathetic that numerous males are so insecure about their masculinity that they must resort to petty allegations.
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COL Jon Thompson
TSgt Hunter Logan - I said nothing about the women cheating. My point was that this was in People magazine, a mainstream entertainment weekly and not a anti-Obama right-wing nut blog. I would think that People would have a higher journalistic standard and clearly the Time Magazine family leans more to progressive views. So why would they publish this article? Does Time, Inc., have a political agenda here?
I realize a lot of people would like to know the names of the sources with whom she spoke and since there are no names, she must be lying. However, journalists use unnamed sources all the time (e.g. Deepthroat in Watergate). She says she spoke to the people on the ground who were grading this class (RIs). These sources said there was immense pressure to get them through. With the visibility on this, I can see how that happened even if the CG never said to make sure they passed.
And to be clear, in her first bullet comment about men not getting a chance to recycle, she is talking about the RTAC program which women had to go through prior to Ranger school. This is run by the National Guard at Fort Benning and is a pre-req for all NG Soldiers prior to Ranger school attendance.
I do believe these women displayed a lot of courage to even take this step. I cannot imagine they did so not knowing how much controversy and discussion would arise on both sides. Finally, I do apologize for saying anything that can be construed as insulting to women in our military. That was not my intention here. I think it is best for me to listen to you and make these my last comments on this entire issue!
I realize a lot of people would like to know the names of the sources with whom she spoke and since there are no names, she must be lying. However, journalists use unnamed sources all the time (e.g. Deepthroat in Watergate). She says she spoke to the people on the ground who were grading this class (RIs). These sources said there was immense pressure to get them through. With the visibility on this, I can see how that happened even if the CG never said to make sure they passed.
And to be clear, in her first bullet comment about men not getting a chance to recycle, she is talking about the RTAC program which women had to go through prior to Ranger school. This is run by the National Guard at Fort Benning and is a pre-req for all NG Soldiers prior to Ranger school attendance.
I do believe these women displayed a lot of courage to even take this step. I cannot imagine they did so not knowing how much controversy and discussion would arise on both sides. Finally, I do apologize for saying anything that can be construed as insulting to women in our military. That was not my intention here. I think it is best for me to listen to you and make these my last comments on this entire issue!
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According to their classmates, they embraced exactly the same suck as them. Hooah to both of the women who met the challenge and earned the tab, and their classmates who did the same, but with the additional burden of doing so under the unrelenting eye of a skeptical public.
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LTC (Join to see)
So what? Was the "suck" the standard it is suppose to be? Or was it altered to meat political pressure?
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