Does aviation MOSs have relaxed grooming standards?

CSM John Mead - Not my place to question your position; AR-670-3(c) also supports your comments. Merely answering a question based on my experiences in aviation. My personal feelings? It's not something I, as an officer would normally get involved in. If my SNCOs had an issue with it... they'd correct it. If they didn't... I probably wouldn't fall on that particular sword without understanding why they were tolerant of it first. Thank you for keeping us straight.

LCDR Joshua Gillespie - no problem sir. My issue is that an NCO approached a warrant officer to inquire about an obvious discrepancy and received a subpar and totally off base response. Perhaps if he had been a senior NCO, the result would have been different. I would have fired his backside up. I'm not sure how aviators act, but as long as they wear a uniform, they'll conform to regulations.

About to Fly is very vague. Now how long could it possibly take to take her ponytail down and be ready to Fly? Not long I’m guessing. If I was about to get off work in about an hour, does the mean I can start get out of Uniform?

LCDR Joshua Gillespie That was exactly my thought. The hair wouldn't easily fit under the helmet and be an uncomfortable distraction. I suspect it is a commander using discretion to meet mission objectives. As others have pointed out it does raise questions about what "about to fly is" and if it is a problem why have that much hair?

CSM Michael Chavaree Mike, youre just egging me on, aren't you? Just trying to push the envelope to see what it'll take to set me off. Well, I'll tell you this. I won't knuckle under or listen to bullshit how commanders allow this, or allow that. It all falls back on the senior enlisted advisor. That's right, you, the CSM. Evidently too many have gotten wrapped up in the Christmas tree uniform crap. Full colored unit patches, tabs here and there, like participation trophies for five year olds. It's disgusting that in the last 15-20 years that the only thing that the SMA's have accomplished eere to switch from Class A greens to the blue ASU, to a pinks and green service uniform, redo the APFT a few times, fiddle with the NCO-ER, and whatever other useless bullshit comes to town. When I had to brief to the ADC about the different typed of tattoos my troops had during a training brief, I knew that it was time to go. For you to try to justify to me utter nonsense and just shrug it off with it doesn't matter, the old man signed off on it, is utterly appalling. Screw it, you did get me wound up and I don't let that happen often. Anyway, do your time and pursue other pursuits while you can. At least Agent Orange isn't going to wait 50 years to catch up with your ass. Drive on and do great things. Out here.

No agent orange here just gunshot wounds and shrapnel. I am not trying to egg you on, we just dissagree and I am using references and examples. You have no idea the challenges we face during this almost two decades at war, fixing the close minded “garrison” Army that was built by people who had no idea how to fight an endouring war. If everything was great, we would have left it alone. The modern military is more agile and elite than it has ever been because we have leaders that can make common sense decisions and apply critical thinking to outsmart our advisaries. At the end of the day you fail to realize that a commander has command of his/her eliment and has earned command authority over said organization and members regardless of what you think. If the Army wanted a CSM to have command authority they would have granted it. You keep saying thinks like presence and experience as if I have no clue what you are talking about. None of that matters if a commander gives you as a CSM a lawful order to about face and move out. You just dont have that authority regardless of how powerful you think you are. I lead my folks through inspiration not fear. CSM John Mead

CSM Michael Chavaree leadership through a fear based philosophy is the worst form of guidance ever visited on a unit. My father was a career CSM himself with a terminal assignment in Vietnam from 70 to 71. He even influenced the replacement company to assign me to his division when I got there. I was able to convince the SFC in charge of assignments ro change that for me. I could only imagine the crap I'd have faced otherwise. I can sympathize with you if you have a commander who won't listen to advice and tells you to bugger off. I had one like that and our time together was short lived. I repeatedly tried to teach/coach him, but to no avail. He eventually screwed himself. In the course of maintaining continuity in the unit, my only concern were the troops. It was like watching your parents fight. In the end, when I received no assistance from higher, I let the SOB hang himself. Right, not professional, but without higher's help, I couldn't do squat. He was extremely toxic and everyone feared him. I already had 25, so what could he do? All in all, I hear a lot about current commanders who are like that. My assessment of.any crop of senior commander is not as positive as yours. I keep seeing repetitive errors being made, as if no historical data is kept for future leaders. Oh well, my time is long past. You are no doubt correct that our soldiers are the best, otherwise why do they keep enlisting/reenlisting? It's funny how you and I started as antagonists and now we share insights. Perhaps you are correct in your view of how things should be, and I'm no doubt of another era and way of doing things. Whatever gets things done, I imagine. Good talking with you.

Emotion is lost in text, I respect you greatly and would love to pick your brain. I know I am a bit different, but I have different perspectives from my experiences. CSM John Mead

Your analogy doesn't even match the story at hand. A deficiency is just that. the SGT approached the senior member of the corporal's group to address the issue. he did what was right. Though I am sorry to hear of Not-SPC-Foreman's friends passing, that particular case is not of the same fabric.

Exactly what previous post is saying, yours was a whole other situation.

You’re clearly some sort of softy coddler, all looking out for your joes n such. I mean, I bet you’ve probably never even smoked one to death.

I completely agree with mission preparedness; however, the clear specifics seem to have been left out. If she is in a flight suit; then, I would be able to justify the braid. However; she doesn’t appear to be near a flight line. If this is indeed a flight suit, that alone does not justify the braided ponytail. IMHO

SPC Nancy Greene it is a flight suit. You can tell by the belt-looking band on the bottom of the blouse.

I went to recheck the picture, she is standing near a civilian car... that too me would be a place where her hair would be up. She doesn't look to be anywhere near a helicopter.

Melissa Didericksen Didericksen - *whispers* pony tails are allowed in uniform... There's no error here.

Still can not go past the shoulder blades. Not only that she doesn't have her cap on either.

Also, when I looked at the pic closer she is not in a flight suit, those are one piece outfits and it looks to be the OCP here.

Since I can't respond to the post because I'm blocked for some weird reason...it should be but it may be easier to wear a helmet with it down. Maybe she tucks it up underneath when she's flying? I'm not sure but I would have corrected her too. At least say put it up in a loose bun or something.

SFC (Join to see) Very true Kelly.

SFC (Join to see) she doesn’t tuck it up when she’s flying. Women with longer hair specifically wear it down when wearing the flight helmet.

Sgt Thomas Proctor - that's what your post is. You belittling an entire generation of servicemembers and veterans because they aren't "old school" therefore they just "don't get it".
Let me let you in on a little secret. That "more liberal, younger generation" includes PFC's and SPC's who have more time in firefights than you have time in service.

SFC Michael Hasbun - I have never said anything belittling a whole generation of young people, you are the one that entertained that thinking. I appreciate their service to this country. You are the one that started this crap when you stated, "You have not been in the real service" because I served in the Air Force. Would you tell an Air Force "Forward Combat Air Controller" that he was not in the real service, if you are not familiar with this AFSC, look it up. If you did make this remark to him, I doubt if he would be too gentle with you. I know young men in the military but have never heard one say to a Veteran that they were never in the real service because they served in the Air Force. Look on your discharge, it will have DD-214 just like mine. Looks to me SFC that you can dish it out but you cannot take rebuttal. You need to heed the advice of, "Make sure brain is engaged before putting mouth in gear" You have a good day and stay safe. Just remember, "Old Ammunition Specialist" never die, they just misfire. You have done a fine job of making an ass of yourself on this post so now is the time for an orderly withdrawal, you are familiar with this phrase , are you not. Please don't answer this reply because my time is getting short and I have other things to do. Been nice chatting with you. Keep your eyes open and your powder dry.

SFC Michael Hasbun While I completely agree Proctor’s comments are ridiculous. Why is it you feel it necessary to attack the Guard? Was my time overseas or my rank or anything else not good enough to you because of the patch on my shoulder?

SSG (Join to see) - Tell me young wise one what is so ridiculous about the remarks that I posted. Waiting.